and no, not perspective that seeks to say everything's ok.

We were outclassed tonight, in almost every department. I've not seen some replays, so maybe some of Silverwood's decisions were iffy, but overall we were poor.

We don't have any centres. Neither Senior nor Delaney currently possess the ability to put their wingers away-Senior's past it and Delaney is much more of a second row than a centre. We need a new pair in for next year, because we just looked pedestrian at the back.

Kev isn't a standoff. What i said a few days ago about not playing Webb at SO i retract. He was stood so deep we had no pace coming onto the ball, completely unlike Tomkins and Wigan generally, who were stood in deep line when going forward, while we were very flat. Furthermore, Burrow just doesn't do enough any more. A lot of effort but almost no product, and while his agility and pace is good, it's not working for him at the minute.

Up front, we lacked power. Once Bailey went off we had Leulaui doing the work of what would usually be 4 props on rotation. With Peacock and Kylie both being the wrong side of 30, we need to look at our prop options next year.

For me, we need to have serious changes. Watkins has to start at 4, and Smith needs to be involved every week, either on the wing or at centre. Jones-Bishop is deserving of a go at fullback, as Webb's not been playing well. And we need to get some cover for the halves and a prop.

So bluey's shopping list:

1 prop
1 utility/half
1 centre/winger

As for some of the excuses we've had, here's some rebuttal

'but if we'd won 4 games we would have come top'. Precisely. We didn't lose to Hull KR, Castleford, Huddersfield or Crusaders because we were unlucky, but because we were poor.

'we still made the challenge cup final'-we choked in the final against a much better coached Warrington side, and for a side that've been champions for the last few years, losing the cup final isn't enough.

Not exactly the 'bit of perspective' I was expecting

So it's not perspective then just a rant because we have'nt won anything?

Looks that way.

As somebody on the outside looking in, i actually think the OP makes a very good argument. I badly wanted you to win tonight but could see that without maguire you looked pedestrian. Senior has been brilliant for you but i agree that leeds are lacking a top quality centre.

I think it was just a game to far for you, you threw everything at us your lads really tried and Leulaui was awesome and funny.

and thanks to the leeds well wishers generally a good bunch you leeds fans .

The fact is there has to be a long, hard look at things over the closed season.

- In spells, we looked a great team in defence and especially in the spell during the middle of the first half, where we penned Wigan back in their own 40. The problem is we were unable to sustain it for the periods that we have done in the past.

- Much as we hate them, you've got to credit Wigan for playing to the full extent of the rules. I know we rave about Tomkins little grabs, but the fact is that like the Wigan of old, they exploit the rules. We sadly, have fallen short in this and whilst we did perfect things like the kick delays at restarts, frankly we've not been 'innovative' enough at times this season. We have remained static, whilst other teams have developed.

A good example of this is where we kicked to wingers or Tomkins and their ploy is to 'voulentary tackle'. However, a player must try to regain their feet and if they don't, it is a penalty. By touching the grounded player, that counts as tackle complete and it took Wigan to do it first to us during the game before we 'sussed' it. I'm not a well qualified RL coach and I can see it, then it begs the question why hasn't this sort of thing been coached in to our players before now ?

There are several players that during the very highest games like tonight were found wanting, maybe because they're just not good enough or being around just that bit too long.

My fear is that with much the same squad, a year older and slower, without some serious hard work and innovation over the closed season, we could find ourselves with an increasingly steep hill to reclimb.

What happened to the perspective?

Shared.

Over to Mr H to keep the train on the tracks.

Next season for Leeds starts in the morning.

We have a lot of players approaching the wrong side of 30 and many teams who have sustained sucess over an extended period have in the past been ruthless towards those players, when it comes to passing them off to the rest of the market when their time has come.

Now I am not suggesting that we should get rid of anyone who displays the odd grey hair, but likewise we don't want to get caught with the present golden generation all getting old at once and having no one to replacement with.

We're going to have to be very cute on the transfer market to obtain quality replacements in the spaces created by the departing Beastwood and Donald. Wigan have already got half of Melbourne in the bag for next year and are going to be even better than they were this evening.

We peaked last week, our squad is not balanced and we had missed our sole cutting edge in Danny.

Wigan DID NOT out class us. I'm actually a little be shocked because I thought they would. Even minus the injuries we lived with them up the middle all night long, conceeded 2 or even 3 silly tries but never offered much close to their line. We need a overhaul or whip crack of our backline.

Webb - Gash year. At his best no1 FB at the club. Based on this year Smith should have been FB last night. NEVER beats a man. Not been the same since his injuries or possibly his last contract extension. When we're playing well he might show up with tries. When we're not he goes missing and plods along with kick returns.

- Senior Delaney. Ones past his peak. the other isn't good enough. Solid in defence, no go forward. Biggest overhaul needed right here.

Smith Hall - No change needed beyond their inside support.

Burrow - Off year. Great defender out wide, best technique in the sqaud. Go forward though He needs to focus on organising the team and becoming a structured play maker. He can't do what danny does so he needs to provide something different. if his little jinks arent working he contributes nothing. We had alot of position close to the line, he was absent and we just went through the motions of spreading it. He needs to run things in the last 3rd and let Danny worry about getting accross the line.

Danny - The only reason we finished 4th and actually scored some tries this year. He covers up alot of our sqauds weakness all by himself. Can spark something out of nothing and a deadly finisher accross the park. Even with our unbalanced squad he could have single handedly changed the game last night, he's that important.

Must have been a good training session!!!

You state Smith should have been at FB then state Smith and Hall wingers no change needed.

I agree Smith should start FB next season....Webb is going to need starting at SO and Jones-Bishop will be needed in the threequarters

Both Smith and Hall are too slow to be starting wingers. Hall could be a starting centre alongside our brightest hope there, Watkins.

I agree with the rest. We will badly miss McGuire.... and need a good game plan to compensate for his loss for a significant part of next season. We also have to hope his injury has not taken the edge off his pace.

I agree with the point about Danny. He has carried us for most of the season. Never thought I d say this but Burrow should be dropped until he rgains his creative flair.Defensively he's as strong as ever but he has lost the abily to surprise the oposition. They all know he's going to run sideways and then duck into a gap. Too easy to deal with. What's worrying is that as far as i know we have no real cover for mcGuire. or Burrow Who's coming through the ranks?
Delaney i think has been a disappointment all season -maybe better to let him go but if that's not possible a move into the pack along with Senior seems a good idea. Moving Hall to centre might work but I think we'd be better signing a top class pair of centres because we all know that Hall is effective on the wing if he's got someone to play off.
Smith to full back might give Webb a kick up the . I think Smith is probably a more innovative player and better at returning the kick but Webb is much better under the high ball.
What was noticeable about the Wigan game was how rarely we broke the line. We really need someone with the strength and guile to do that. At the moment Ali is the only one who looks capable.

I would have thought that a year without winning anything and frankly getting blown away in the two biggest games of the season should occasion a rethink within the team. Some individuals haven't played that well, but IMO we lost track almost from the start this year with the nonsensical obsession with the WCC.

Leeds have looked like a tired team, and too many players seem content to wait for others to do something - missing McGuire we still have Burrow, Webb, Sinfield, Buderus, Diskin, and yet we look clueless. Compare and contrast to Sts, who are still incredbly competitive without either of their starting halfbacks.

Hopefully a good off-season and an intent to hit the ground running will make a big difference next year.

Smith at BS last night. Assuming we can get webb going again Next season then I've no problem with Smith and Hall on the wing. If we're going to get another season of the same out of our elite, well payed, key player Webb I'd move Smith to FB and consider webbs role.

The balance of the team is wrong. We have too many head down run into contact merchants whereas Saints, Wigan & Warrington team have gone for ball players who can also go forward. All three seem faster than us with feet and brain. The responsibility for this must be with GH who seems to take charge of recruitment.

But the dissappointing one up way we play is down to the coach. Too flat, too predictable, no planned moves other than back into the ruck, and too much reliance on an individual brilliant moment from Maguire. We lack pace throughout the side and we also lack some technical skills in the tackle area.

I think Bluey was lucky to inherit a winning, settled group of outstanding players at the top of their game who were used to a fast offload/back up style. The side has gone backwards during his time with poor pre-season preparation for two years running. His bash up the middle tactics rather than tire out the opposition has jaded our players and our poor discipline has cost us.

Many of the players that have been outstanding for us in the past now seem slow and ordinary and our famed handling skills have all but dissappeared. I think this is because the game plan they have been asked to play is not suitable for our group of players and much of their talent has been wasted. His team selection is also too predictable as he seems to pick his favourites even when out of form or carrying injuires.

So we now face a period of regrouping and recruitment but I am not blaming the players who have kept us in the hunt right until the end showing great character. I think the players have been let down by the coaches and poor recruitment.

Cobblers.

Since when did winning back to back titles under Mclennan constitue to going backwards?? The winning run had to stop sometime, you just can't keep it going especially in a salary capped era. What we've achieved has been something veryspecial indeed. The plus side of failure to retain the title for the 4th year on the trot is that a long off season will do us a lot of good, we're mentally and physically knackered after 3 title's on the bounce, it's taken it's toll... add to that the huge amount of injuries we've had in key areas from day one of this season...

A couple of quality additions in the forwards and the return of Watkins and BJB will be excellent news.. and should take us right up there again.

To all those now asking for change. Where exactly is it going to come from now?

We should have been planning for this months ago, not on the back of a defeat and quite frankly a disastrous season, before realising it.

Unless the club goes out and throws money at a transfer now, there really is not much around that could improve this squad.

I would rather go with what we have now than make desperation cheap signings for the sake of it.

It was poor planning full stop from the club this year, and they need to learn from it, and get it right for 2012.

The first change I would make:

drag Delaney out of the centre spot ASAP.

I thought Delaney had his best game in a leeds shirt on Saturday. He was certainly 10 times the player in the other centre spot.

How subjective is rugby!!!

In the second half, on numerous occasions he failed to make the right play. He can't put his winger away and doesn't even scan to see what's 'on'

When judging a player in a position I always ask: how effective is X in that position?

So how effective a centre is Delaney? Not very.

He hasn't supplied his wingers, so he's not a classic centre. In defence he can tackle what's in front of him but also gets caught out on the scramble time and time again. He also struggles to get off his feet and deal with kicks. Offers zilch protetction to his wing men.

His biggest plus points are his leg drives, he soaks up metres and he is good at front facing tackling. Both of these areas take up alot of juice, so he is willing to do the work and in this area and is very effective.

But an effective centre? No.

A flawed centre? Yes.

Would he make a better second row than centre? Yes IMO

You make very valid points above. So how many times did Senior get his winger away on Saturday? how many chances did he have to do it? many chances.

If you are viewing Delaney on the season, then I guess there is little argument because your points are correct. But on Saturday he was important to that side. He put hard work in going forward, his defence was good, and he did look dangerous. On his side is that he is still only young, and this was his first season over here, compare the views on him and Donald in his first season.

Don't get me wrong, I think we could have done a lot better than Delaney, but I think the other centre spot is far more crying out for change than the right one is.

From my perspective in the Carnegie Stand, one of our problems this year was our poor start, highlighted by the coach in the YEP. www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... 6551723.jp Part of that IMV was down to the appalling state of the pitch which contributed to the spate of early season injuries that we suffered. On Saturday the pitch looked to be in excellent condition apart from the area in front of the South Stand. I wonder what it will look like when we start the season next February?

From my perspective in the Carnegie Stand, one of our problems this year was our poor start, highlighted by the coach in the YEP. www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/s ... 6551723.jp Part of that IMV was down to the appalling state of the pitch which contributed to the spate of early season injuries that we suffered. On Saturday the pitch looked to be in excellent condition apart from the area in front of the South Stand. I wonder what it will look like when we start the season next February?

I was judging Delaney on the season. A summary of where he is.

I am happy Senior doing what he does. He has created a lot this season and supplies his wingers quite effective overall. Senior isn't the player he was but he can still hold his own and can still shine. He's fit and eager, I have no issues with him.

I just think in the centre spot Delaney is fundamentally flawed. I think he's a better rugby player than he is a centre. A spell at second row, he'd be like a pig in muck. Playing to his strengths.