Now don't get me wrong, my knee isn't jerking and I remain confident that this will be turned around but........................

Cast your minds back. Imagine of Smith were presiding over this current period.

Some baffling team selections, awful discpline, complete lack of structure, woeful handling and support play (or lack thereof) is a throwback to the 1980's. Yet Bluey remains free of criticism?

Hmmmmmm. Interesting,

good point,however smiths 'bad time' lasted a full season not a few games.
if this run continues fair enough, but at the moment it's no more than a dip

Maybe because we are top of the league and in the semi final of the cup?? Also Smith didnt recieve any critisism in his 1st season that i can remember.

Jeez,we're in danger of turning into 'Ull!

Is it 2005 all over again.

When's Daryl Powell coming back?

When Smiths tenure ends at the end of 2006

Dont even joke about that

There was criticism of Smith in August time in 2005. Though memories may also be clouded by the criticism of 2006 and 7 too.

I think there were a number of differences.

The strange selection policies of now aren't anything like as extreme as the ones that arguably cost the cup final in 2005 or that then stifled certain players in 2006. Arguably any decisions at the moment are forced. I'm not sure the same could be said of 2005.

Bluey doesn't appear to be breaking up the squad whereas in 2005 Smith discarded fringe players, despite much of 2004's success and his reputation being founded on his 'tinkerman' use of the squad.

In 2005 the spirit of the side that was so visible in 2004 and pre July 2005 seemed to vanish amid rumours of dressing room unrest and draconian approaches to discipline. I don't think there is any problem with the spirit at the moment and no rumours of unrest that I'm aware of.

Theres also the context. By the middle of 2005 we'd seen Leeds pretty much completely dominate things for 12 months. That came after a long period without success and was acompanied by a real belief (not just on this forum) that the squad was good enough to be a dominant force for a number of years. That the dominance should appear so fragile and for this to happen so suddenly in 2005 was difficult to take, particularly as it seemed that Leeds were falling back to the chasing pack rather than them catching up. Now, after another GF win and WCC people are a little more chilled about failure and success.

Finally there's the timing. Criticism in late August and September 2005 bracketed the challenge cup final upset and marked the end of a long period of poor form heading towards the business end of the season. People can be more chilled now as its still some months from the play offs, the team are still top of the table and still in the cup semi final (which is seemingly the priority). The blip in form is happening long before the big end of season games.

We wouldnt have lost that match last season. A total lack of composure in the 1st half led to us having an almost impossible mountain to climb.

Credit to the team for coming back & nearly snatching it, but why dont we just grind out teams in the 1st half like we did last season. Might not be as pretty to watch as champagne rugby but it's prettier than us losing

I totally dissagre randy do you not remember the matches against wigan??? hull at home??we had a poor 40 minutes and still only lost through missed kicks we have seen how good this team can be this season and i have every faith we'll regain that form.

I said that to SouthStander in the car on the way back last night.

Do you think it is 2005 all over again oldham???
I just think it's the blip we were all expecting at some point and i think we can still win the lot.

Until you start a 50 odd page whining about injuries, a seventy odd page thread on their useless management, continous jealousy over players going to pastures new and a weekly thread on blame the referee your not in the same class as Ull

At the moment, everything is pointing in that direction. I hope it doesn't happen like but I'm ready for it.

I never thought it possible, but i really beleive i'll win the 50£ now.

Great point, it is fascinating that so little comment is made about McClennan; let alone criticism.

I wouldn't just compare the position to Smith's tenure either. I can think back over several previous coaches and the outcry that accompanied losing 3 from 4.

He seems to be having a longer honeymoon period than most. Could it be many fans set their stall out too early with over the top praise and are now unwilling to backtrack slightly?

I hope not

As G1 says, I'm not knee-jerking, but there has been a nagging doubt in my mind all season that we put too much into the first half of the season and might suffer for it later. That could show a bit of inexperience of this level on McClennan's part maybe? Last season we did it the other way round and the team were roundly criticised for most of the year.

Just a thought though and I remain reasonably confident given the comeback in the 2nd half last night.

But the team said earlier in the season that they weren't peaking too soon yadda yadda.

I was thinking mainly to the vitriolic criticism Smith received last year around the period of the home defeats to Hull and Wakefield and the "blip" they suffered that was not a million miles away from this one.

Maverick and GCM make very valid points.

BTW, I am not having a go at Bluey. I like the guy and have enjoyed most of the rugby his team has played.

The purpose of this thread is to highlight the hypocritical nature of we Rhinos fans.

Can anyone out there genuinely tell me that if the cool, distant, unliked genius Smith were in charge of this season he would not be getting several negative threads a day?

Said the same on the way home last night Matt.

We started that season not knowing how to lose, and ended it not knowing how to win.

Have we peaked too soon?? At the minute it's looking that way.

I'm not too conerned about the ghost of 2005 and here's why...

It was suggested by just a few posters at the beginning of the season that the early dominance was partly due to Leeds being several weeks ahead of the rest of Superleague as they'd sought to be playing at a high intensity from the off due to the desire to win the WCC. It was also suggested that that level of performance couldn't be maintained from February through to October. No athletes can mentally and physically peak for the full 8 months. Some sought to dismiss that as the same objectivity could be applied to the WCC victory itself as Melbourne were even further behind in their preparation, but I digress...

Its like a 1 mile running race. If one runner sets off at a sprint then after 1/4 mile or even 1/2 a mile he'll have a huge lead and look pretty much unassailable but he'll be tiring and by the last 200 yds others will have caught him and have enough energy to pull away with a kick to the line. That was 2005.

So, how about this for a theory:

Winning the WCC in 2005 brought a good deal of commercial success and meant alot to the fans. Winning again in 2008 was very achieveable - far more likely than retaining the SL crown - as there was a chance the Aussies would be underdone and Leeds were automatically in the final. As a result that became number one priority for 2008 and requied the team to peak at the beginning of the season.

That meant a risk of 2005 all over again - the team couldn't be expected to maintain that through the season. In that year they they'd evidently set off fast and (to use the running analogy) tried to hang on at the end, hopefully picking up a medal (a CC Final win and/or League Leaders shield) but probably only likely to win the GF if the other runners tripped and fell (as St Helens [idid [/iin 2004 and 5). Ultimately Leeds couldn't hang on and came away with nothing bar the WCC.

But I think the club will have learned from 2005. They've clearly stated that a big aim for the year is the Challenge Cup. It might be a genuine desire to hold that trophy, or be because they felt keeping up the intensity until the end of August would be achieveable, and that would give a decent stab at the CC and maybe the League Leaders too,but accepted the GF might not be realistic.

I think there may be more to it than that though.

In 2005 Leeds used (I think) fewer players than this year yet didn't start to show a drop in performance until early June or a consistent change in results until the end of August. Thats a number of weeks later than this year despite using the squad more in 2008. I think that was largely burnout but this lull seems too premature for that to be the case.

I wonder if there has been a recognition that simply 'hanging on' wont work and that the staff have decided to start fast, bringing home the WCC in the process, but then by the end of May dropping the training and mental intensity a bit. That carries the risk of a drop in form and resultant defeats but maybe allows the intensity to be raised again later in the season as the players will have had a mental and physical 'breather' before trying to peak again. Obviously not aiming to lose any games but not risking a fatal burn out for the season by pushing 100% all the time.

Are they aiming to peak twice and the current lull is a necessary risk in targetting this? I'm optimistic.

As one of Smith's stearnest critics and as Gareth has already raised this point to me before I suppose a response is in order.

Smith started to get some stick following the CC final of 2005 - he let his own personal issues with certain players get in the way of the collective. He had deprived a senior player of a once in a lifetime opportunity simply because he had the balls to stand up to him over the coach's treatment of the players in Perpignan. He was prepared to destroy any chance the team had of winning to show who was boss? such a big man!!

The team then went into a tailspin of form for two years - 2006 was dire and the team's form only picked up when it was announced Smith was on his way - read into that what you will.

So Smith duly got the stick he deserved IMO.

As for McClennan - unlike Smith - he is on a massive learning curve - this is the first time he has coached full time. He has inherited a squad that doesn't suit the way he wants to play and as such is making the best fist of the resources available. We are struggling down our right hand - McClennan has his three right centres all out injured.

Whilst on the injuries Smith never encountered anything like the number of injuries McClennan has suffered this season. Last night we had Toopi, Ablett, Gibson, Tansey, Kirke, Watkins and Scruton - four of which played in the GF - unavailable for selection next week you will be able to add Sinfield too - this has been the norm almost every week.

Final Gareth I know you hold Smith in very high regard - however one memory for you - this tells you much about Smith - his motivational approach and why he got the stick - I remember going to Odsal for a semi final against Huddersfield in 2006 - never have I seen a more abject performance in a game the really mattered - the play off game in the same season against Warrington ran it close.

I doubt you will ever see a team of McClennans put in performance lacking so much desire. Yes maybe under Smith Leeds might have won the game last night - but one is for sure they would never have won the game the previous week - why because Smith would not have had the balls to play the game - and for that alone McClennan get my continued support.

That's a great post.

But how do explain saints situation?

They pretty much maintained it all through 2006, then again in 2007. They were outplayed on the day in the grand final, but they still maintained. Finishing top (again) and winning the cc (again), then beating us in the playoffs.

Then....again this season. a shaky start, but they have overahuled a 6 point deficit and look unstoppable.

will they finish top (again), win the cc (again) and win back the title?

If they can maintain this type of form and consistency over such a length of time other teams hsould be able to.