ATEOTD we lost 10 games ,finished 6th and went out of the play offs with a wimper at the first hurdle that is not good enough and no amount of stats , line ups or past victories/failures will make it good enough either.
Yes injuries/suspensions play a part but ST's showed they can be overcome irrespective of opinions about Teams allegedly "tossing it off" or not taking some fixtures as seriously as others.
It was great to see the stalwarts finally get the CC winners medal but it doesn't take away how poor we were in the SL for the last 3 months.
The squad needs freshening up and and so does the Coaching staff whether we suffered 4 point losses or 14 point losses doesnt really matter in the grand scheme of things a lot of the "performances" were one dimensional and lacked quality ,skill & the ability to adapt during a game to change tactics.
JP has been a great servant a real God amongst men and we also have so many Club Legends/immortals still here but age is catching up with some more than others and IF changes aren't done this year AND next i think it will set us back 2/3 years or worse especially if we have to replace 4-5 or 6 KEY players at once.

We couldn't agree more!

kindest regards,

Wigan & Saints (replaced 14 players between them in 2014) xxx

No I don't make the problems out to be injuries alone, but they're a consideration. Think most would agree that Saints had things fall nicely for them in the playoffs. After they beat us at Langtree they picked up just 3 more points than us in the remainder of the year and we threw away 4 vs London and Bradford to concentrate on the cup.....Ooops sorry forgot we can't mention the cup as it shouldn't be a factor. Hey did anybody read the article on Kyle Amor on the YEP when he said.....

"The front rower also felt Leeds did injury-ravaged Saints a favour by knocking them out of the Challenge Cup. He said: “That was the best thing for us, because it allowed us to do a mini-pre-season and go over a few things and it worked wonders for us."

Sorry better go tell Kyle Amor he can't mention the CC. Maybe if we had that mini-pre-season we could've fixed up a few things that were clearly wrong, perhaps now in proper pre-season they will be.



Of course we'll pick up injuries, will they be as bad as this year, who knows? I seriously doubt we'lol lose both starting hookers at the same time for 3 months. Is the team's age mean we'll pick up more injuries? Well like you said previously Saints probably were hit harder yet they aren't known as an old team. Difference with injuries next year with the new format is that we'll see a return to previous years where players play busted more whereas McDermott tried resting this year. That btw the way is something that will happen across the board for all teams with only 4 playoff spots up for grabs.



No I mention the CC because actually getting to and winning the final DOES effect how your season pans out. It's utter stubborness and foolish from you to keep saying it should be ignored when reviewing a season. Before we played London, McDermott in an interview was asked if the team had gotten "Wembley fever" yet after beating Wire the week before, his replied that the team has had Wembley fever ever since we beat Saints in Round 5 and knew with the draw (against lower league for the next round) that we would probably be in the semis. Now I'm not saying that is right for the squad to have allowed themselves to think so far ahead when they still had a big chunk of league games to come, I'm just pointing out what the team's mindset was. Whether right or wrong, the team wanted the cup most, it was the main target, even a close friend spoke to one of the guys post Wembley who said that "all thoughts this year have been about Wembley, Wembley, Wembley."

That's gone now, it's not going to be this shadow hanging over them about whether they win it. You really can't (or shouldn't) underestimate the significance of us getting that cup win 'out of the way', whether or not people on here wanted us to win.



Like I said before, the Leeds soft underbelly thing was hardly a new thing, nor was Wigan going tough. Are you seriously saying Wane only stumbled upon this when he saw Bateman and Peacock have handbags? Doesn't that incident prove that they tried to rattle the Leeds cages at Headingley, yet they lost comfortably to us.



Well why the worry that teams will copy the blueprint if they aren't capable of playing like Wigan.



Is it? Considering how little we had anything close to our best team out I'd say it isn't.



Wasn't all fit though clearly, Moon wasn't ok by a long stretch and I don't think McGuire and Burrow had properly recovered from the injuries that kept them out post Wembley.



Yes we like to keep our main players on a lot whereas other mix it up a bit more. A lot of that is because of the top 8 system, think it'll be different from all teams now and squad depth you won't see as much across the board.



Except for when he helped deliver the trophy the aimed for most this season you mean?



I agree about there's only so long the same voice can be heard and I have said McDermott will have run his course by the end of 2015. I've address the issue will coaching on previous threads throughout the year, in fact towards the latter part of 2013 whilst most we just crying about "we're too old in the forwards" I pointed out our real flaw was execution in the final 20m, glad to see others catch up this year (likewise for when I kept saying Watkins get a free pass on this board, people now seemingly agree that he needs to shoulder some blame for his showings and not his teammates all the time).

I don't see that many games just now, but listening to the commentaries of those games we lost in the late stages of the season I could sense that in the last 10 minutes the oppositions tails went up as though they could feel that Leeds were there for the taking.

Wane saw for the first time that JP wasn't able to put a youngster back in his box - he had gone soft, the way Bateman just batted him off was a surprise to most, Leeds don't have any other hard men. I don't think that was a tactic in game 1 it just happened. In the second game his tactic was to get his team to ruffle a few feathers and it worked. I never said I was worried that Leeds had gone soft what I said was the team were never the same again after Wigan beat them up at Magic.

You are not reading - or you are reading what you want it to say - on the challenge cup The played one game between April and the semi in August so that should not have impacted the league form all this CC fever is just McDermott making excuses for the team's inability to perform.

How can Leeds not play their old players for extended periods? what options have they got that McDermott will use to replace Peacock, JJB, Sinfield, McGuire, Burrow, Kylie?

People have been talking about issues in the opponents 20 since Tony Smith's days so don't start claiming you were the first you are one of number of bandwagon jumpers on that score. When you main playmaker hasn't got a short kicking game of any quality you will not create in that area and Leeds have had the same playmaker since 2003.

Time will tell how next season pans out - I personally think the top 4 is beyond them - this team is in a steep decline that I don't see being reversed. The quality of play under the whole McDermott reign has been shoddy even the wins in finals have been without any any real style. It is a team that used to be able to raise its game 4/5 times a year that will not be good enough next season.

In reality you could extend this to us being poor in SL (regular rounds) every year under our current coach with league finishes of 5th,5th, 3rd and 6th

We simply have not been consistently good in regular season footy since 2009 but how we finished the 2011 and 2012 seasons with play off success ironed over a lot of the 'issues' in most peoples minds.

Put it this way had 2011 and 2012 not ended like they did (with GF success after garbage regular season campaigns)then IMO McDermott and quite a few of the current players would no longer be here as GH would have been forced to act before now

Really? That's what you're going with? F**king really???

Instead of just accepting that Leeds were better than Wigan on the day even though they'll have had a similar gameplan to Magic you come up with that?

That Wigan and Wane, who had been Wigan coach for nearly 2 and a half years at that point and a few years under McGuire as assistant when Wigan developed a reputation for their 'rough' tactics only realised and tried to be rough with Leeds after Wane saw Bateman have handbags with Peacock? The same Wane who was recorded a few months earlier giving his players free reign to create mayhem and knock people out? That he and Wigan didn't realise about Leeds' soft underbelly until that petty moment between Bateman and Peacock?

Have you been smoking drugs? Are you so obsessed with thinking, telling, spreading the news that all is rubbish at Leeds that you can come up with such a ridiculous theory?

Even those who think Leeds are in trouble next year and won't make the top 4 would surely laugh at the idea that that 'moment' and game at Headingley was some sort of realisation for Wane and Wigan as to how to approach Leeds.

If it was as simple as just replacing numbers you would have a point!
2 front line Props one of which is JP ,Sinfield ,Jjb add in Mags on his last legs and the big ?'s over Aiton like i said "KEY" players!
The way WE are structured is basically on its last legs not only that much of the "depth" isn't up to stepping or is either still very raw & learning.
The Pies play a certain way that allows players to come & go much easier the systems never change we lack that rigid structure but rely on those listed to function.
Lets also not overlook that we aren't replacing good players we are eventually losing what our success has been built on we saw what happened when Harris left that was just one player the Team also need to learn to function without the likes of JP it would be much better to get 2/3 in now and then again for 2016.

This is my biggest concern about us not bringing at least a couple in now to bed in for the inevitable retirements and moving on over the next couple of season. I truly don't expect anymore additions now though for next year going off GH's press release, he seems content, so however delusional we all feel that stance maybe, all the kicking and screaming in the world can't change it. so i will just sit back and try enjoy what will possibly be our last real chance at silverware before the big decline hits which looms ever closer.

Leeds were a side that even Wigan feared in a one off game because of their toughness especially when their back was against the wall. So there was a level of respect which meant they never took the p1ss with Leeds like they do with other sides - no cannonballs etc until game 1 after that it was open season.

I never said that Leeds weren't better than Wigan in game 1 so please read what I put before playing the "Big Man". Come on clever clogs let's hear your "definitive" reason as to why Wane in game two decided the way to beat Leeds was to ruffle their feathers? By game three Leeds were so cuckolded it was embarrassing. Wigan may well have lost the battle in game one but they sure won the war. Leeds with this squad will never be able to physically dominate the current Wigan side.

These little moments set the tone - its like a big hit it changes the tone of the game - of course you being the "expert" you are in your own mind of all things RL would have been able to see that!! Obviously that is beyond the limits of your myopic view. The bigger point was that Peacock never sorted Bateman out in game 1 he allowed Bateman to take the p1ss. That set a tone that cost Leeds - Peacock was never had the same impact.

In fairness there is very little you can do these days with an irritating little t0$$pot like Batemen that wouldn't end up in some sort of card and/or a ban. He's a tough kid though and has some talent, perhaps someone we should have looked at (maybe we did?). Certainly more promise than the long list of nobodies we have invested in over the last few years to try and fill the non existant forward pipeline from our academy.

Our forward production has been a bit underwhelming of late, but I'm not convinced by anything I've seen from him that Bateman offers anything better than we have. He plays in a better pack, but that doesn't make him a better player.

When Bateman first emerged at Bradford, he looked like he was going to be a new Gareth Hock. A wide-running back rower who hit the line hard, broke tackles and hurt teams.

That seems to have dropped out of his game, so what you're left with is a niggly little sod of limited talent. Ironically, not unlike the current version of Gareth Hock.

If Bateman's so great why does Wane leave him on the bench for nearly an hour in most big games?

Perhaps going from a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a bigger pond. Also Wigan play a very structured attacking game that relies on the second man play creating the extra man out wide. So a the need for Bateman's qualities are diminished. If you look at Wigan's back three O'loughlin plays as a 3rd playmaker, Farrell is a tackling machine, Tomkins is a dummy runner

Even the guy from Leigh had a go at JP!!

It is though, if you bring in the right players.

Yeah that worked out well for him didn't it?

I don't see anyone saying he is a great player - bet he would have developed more at either Warrington or Saints

Who said he was "great"? I suggested he might have been a better bet than the likes of Jay Pitts.

Pity he didn't do the same to Bateman - but that's another story

I think you watched a different game to the rest of us.

JP thought better of it, and rightly so.

sparking a chav would have done nothing for his reputation.

"No cannonballs".....sorry must've forgot Jeff Lima on Clarkson or Sam Tomkins on JJB.......Wigan have tried to ruffle our feathers for a few years now, sometimes it has worked, sometimes it hasn't. Wane and Wigan showing "a level of respect and not taking the "......sorry but have you not watched Wigan before this season? Doesn't matter the opposition, in fact the bigger the better to dig into them. The more you try to push this 'Wane only discovered about Leeds in that Bateman incident' the more desperate you sound to push your 'Leeds are doomed' idea.

As I said time will tell - you have no more idea of how Leeds will go next year - even though your arrogance and myopia makes you believe you do. It is all opinions yours is no more valid than mine. Some facts Leeds didn't beat a top four side in SL after win against Wigan in May, they lost 9 games in the second half of the season including losses to Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield. When they needed to put in a half decent performance against the Dragons they fail. My view is based on the tangible evidence listed above not some "I am going to ignore the evidence because winning the CC caused all this and it will all be different because they have now won the CC". The evidence post CC wouldn't suggest that winning the cup and getting the monkey off their back had a positive impact on their play.

On the Wigan thing - yours is an opinion you don't know what Wane thought - even though you actually believe you do!!! Something changed in their attitude between game 1 and game 2 why that was who knows - neither of us really know.