Absolutely.JP is a one off who who would still command a place at any SL club,just like Menzies in his last few years over here.These guys are exceptions not the norm.Kylie is debatable.

Agreed on Micky Mac and Sean O'Loughlin, Farrell, maybe yet Tomkins?

No I haven't you're just reading it wrong and exaggerating what I put.

Firstly, no mention of "overseas" signings, most have come from SL.

Secondly, I never said they can't get through because of the signings, but highlighted the signings they made to show that the pathway that is emerging there isn't exaclty easy. Note I also wrote "today".....it's all very well pointing to the last few years but the Top 8 structure allowed Wane to throw some kids in there, even he has admitted this and said he won't be doing it as much now with the Top 4 system in place.

My points make perfect sense when you consider the structure has changed. Yes they did give kids a chance (top 8 era)......will they be doing it as often (top 4 era) or be going with those players they've signed? Did they play a young academy lad at centre the first 2 weeks with Sarginson missing or did they push the tried and tested Tomkins back there? Is George Williams starting at halfback because he was there first choice or because they tried unsuccessfully to get Blake Green to sign a new 2 year deal last summer? Is Logan Tomkins really Top 4 club standard of is he only there because of his surname?

For someone who hung on the fact that McDermott didn't say the word "excellent" I don't think you in any position to say anyone has read your comments wrong and exaggerated.

You mentioned a number of overseas players in your post including Asotasi, Sims etc. The pathway may be difficult but you have a coach who is not afraid to play youngsters. If they show up well in training he will play them - reputation is not as big a thing at Wigan as it is at Leeds. Wane never said he wouldn't do it but he would be more careful about how he did it. Evidence of the team he played against Widnes and Huddersfield suggests nothing has changed in his philosophy regarding young players. If they haven't got a young centre of the right quality they can't promote just for the sake of it. If they had one I bet he would have played. No club can have ready made replacements in all positions.

You are really stretching a point on Williams - look at the half backs that have come into SL this year. Are seriously suggesting if Wigan were so worried about Williams they could not have signed Kelly, Roberts, Campese, Burns? Logan Tomkins is not an elite standard player OK for the likes of Widnes a bit similar to Chris Clarkson in that respect.

Yes, their philosophy certainly differs from ours. But it's really only now that our golden gen is reaching its endgame that meaningful debate about which is the more successful can start. Up until now, we win hands down. If Wigan go on to enjoy say five years of success at our expense then we're pretty much even. That's my (subjective) reading of it.

The Rhinos Academy fell from being Grade 1 to Grade 3 last year, it's not the standard by which all others are judged anymore. There are some serious improvements to be made before they can rebuild their reputation for the excellence they once had.

Clubs like Wakefield don't offer any more or even as much money to players but they do offer educational qualifications and have ties to Colleges and Universities just the same as Leeds Rhinos, Wigan etc..

An attraction of accepting an offer from Wakefield over Leeds would be the shorter route to 1st team football. There are lots of examples of players who've successfully followed that path, Gareth Ellis being the prime one. Some young players will prefer that opportunity over money, facilities or a badge.

On Cameron Smith, he's a great tallent but there are still a number of questions around him that won't be answered immediately. Everything points toward him being the next junior to make a major, Burgess type, impact on the game but he may also never make it at SL level let alone International.

Warrington will definitely come a calling, chequebook in hand, maybe they already have. I'd bet £25,000 that they've already approached Smith and been sent away with a flea in their ear, never the less I can see Wire fans singing the Smith Smith song in a few years.

leeds fell from a 1 to a 3 because the RFL didnt run the training/assessments necessary to accredit two England internationals as youth coaches, thats it. The RFL will run these course, they players will be accredited and Leeds will be back being a 1.

Doesnt seem much of a problem to me, more a highlight of the stupidity of box ticking excercises

It's all a box ticking excercise.

You think Leeds dropped from Grade 1 to Grade 3 solely for that reason even though the RFL knew they hadn't run the requisite number of UKCC Level 3 courses?

Really?

If the coaches didn't have the right qualifications, then there would be a downgrade. The reason for the lack of qualifications would be irrelevant to the grading. Reasons for the gradings and all on the RFL site.

I'm not suggesting for a second that the Coach qualifications weren't a part of the reason just that it's more than that, nothing that can't be fixed with work and time though.

I'm amazed at people's propensity to be offended by a non offensive (certainly not intended) comments that are based in fact.

Leeds went from a 1 in 2013 to a 3 in 2014 in one category - "Achievements of the System", which measures the improvement in performance of players and coaches over a prolonged period.

Quite how you quantify "improvements in performance" I have no idea, but given the U19 Academy side made it to the qualifying semi-final and the U16s were unbeaten in 2014 it seems an inexplicable drop.

In the four categories measured, Leeds scored a 1, two 2s and a 3, yet for some reason the overall mark was a 3 rather than a 2. Again, difficult to explain on the face of it.

The summary of the report issued to the media can be found at [urlhttp://media.therfl.co.uk/docs/Academy%20Accreditation%202014.pdf[/url, and references the fact that the U16s coaches - Rob Burrow and Carl Ablett - were not Level 3 qualified as having "affected the overall rating". Again, the comments given really don't seem to reflect a system that "requires improvement", which is what a 3 grading signifies.

thats the reason the RFL gave

"Leeds Rhinos Academy regularly produces high quality players for the club, Super League and England at all levels. The Academy is extremely well resourced and housed in excellent facilities, although some coaching staff not having their Level 3 Coaching or UKSCA qualifications has affected the overall rating However, the delivery is outstanding within the Academy and there is a three year strategic plan which identifies key targets and is aligned to a whole strategic plan for rugby in Leeds, that will see these areas addressed going forward"

and no doubt will see them return to a Grade 1

While the RFL may have cited the lack of Level3 coaches that wasn't the only element that was deemed insufficient for a higher Grading. It was a cumulative grading based on a number of areas which are weighted differently hence the average not being a 2

Like I said, I'm not having a go!

Going back to Cam Smith, he has already received offers from 3 Aussie clubs and other SL clubs are waiting in the wings. The biggest financial offer so far is from one of the Aussie clubs, but that's not necessarily swinging it their way at the moment.

He will also play this season U16 level for Cas Lock Lane for anyone interested in going to see him in the flesh.

Quite remarkable that you were such a part of the debate yet can't correctly recall what it was about. Think everybody else recalls it as a debate about Gotcha's use of the word excellent.



The revelance to this debate is???



I did but you then focused the discussion on Wigan solely, I see you've conviently opened it back up to include the other teams.



Oh no you've reverted straight back to solely Wigan....do try and stop flip-flopping.

As for Wigan's team for the first two weeks, it's called injuries, we'll get them too and see young lads come in as a result.



Never said they were worried, but they would've preferred to keep Green instead. Similarly Wane said he wished he could've gotten Pat Richards to stay on instead of moving back to Aus.

i don't think you are having a go I just think you are wrong.

What are these other things then?

I will indulge you against my better judgement.

The point was it shows how you use deflection when you are put on the spot. You accused me of twisting matters and exaggeration I was only giving an example of your twisting a point to suit your argument - putting the debate into context I suppose.

Wigan haven't got that many injuries off the team that played against Huddersfield both half backs would drop out - one to be replaced by Williams one on to the bench to replace Tomkins the only other one is Sutton but Clubb was on the bench so I would suggest same number of youngsters over all. As Mossop is out on dual reg. it suggests Wane isn't too worried about playing Sutton?

What you said was Williams is only there because Wigan could not retain Green - that may well be so, the difference is Wigan are prepared to go with a youngster in a key position rather than recruit an average NRL player - if Wigan come calling not many overseas players decline so they would have had options if they really didn't think Williams was ready. If Leeds had recruited Mossop - as they wanted - would that have meant Singleton would have got less game time?

On another matter Zac was tweeting yesterday that wages in the NRL were on a different planet - does that indicate he is off?

Given that he said not an hour later that it was just an observation and he isn't going anywhere, I would guess not.

Until he signs a new deal the suspicions will continue.Of course i really hope he stays with us but were he to leave for the NRL i would wish him well,just aslong as we don't allow him to move to a rival on the other side of the pennines.

He agreed a new five year deal back in August. But this was before the second issue came up with the Saints game. Whether he changed his mind with the clubs blessing after that, who knows, but personally I reckon they will announce the five year deal soon.

That would be good news,hope you are right.

I've been told that Cameron smith has already signed by Leeds and is already getting paid to ensure that we keep hold of him.

now that is great news

If correct then that is great news, It is also a statement of intent from both parties that should be applauded

Our prop Loui Mcconnell starting for the first time on sat after coming off the bench in the last 2. Big achievement for an u15, he's all the personal and physical attributes to go far.