|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 6848 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2024 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"Gareth Ellis is as similarly solid for the Tigers as Chris Heighington is. James Graham is as similarly solid for the Bulldogs as Aiden Tolman is. Neither Heighington or Tolman are world class either. They are both solid NRL pros.
I take it you dont watch much NRL if you are comparing these players like for like.James Graham has been a revelation for the Bulldogs.Some of his stats week to week have been up there with the best and his offload style has brought a new dimension to the way the Bulldogs play.If you want to see how well he is thought of by their fans check out the dedicated James Graham thread on the bulldogs forum.Quotes in there like 'best import since Ellery Hanley' and 'best Recruit of the season in the NRL bar none'.Tolman couldnt lace his boots quality wise.
Ellis has been injured most of season and it has hurt Wests who are only just scraping into playoffs.3 player of the year awards says it all though.
I dont rate Heighington and agree he is just a solid pro.No better than several of what we have in Super League and dont believe he was good enough for England.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"He isn't as good as Tate, Boyd, Morris, Uate or Yowheh'" He is,
Quote Hall must therefore be less so then.'" He musnt
Quote I wasn't aware Vatuvei was a standout winger in the NRL. He's a big unit who is entertaining and can show flashes of brilliance on his day but his game is prone to way too many errors. He has a real problem with ball control. Looks the flat-track bully part against inferior opposition which might explain his 4-try performance in the 2008 World Cup against England when he destroyed and embarrassed the Harry Sunderland Trophy winner from the SL Grand Final played less than two months earlier.'" Mark Calderwood won the 2008 Harry Sunderland trophy?
Quote I'm pretty sure that [iFijian ringer[/i as you refer to him moved to Australia as a young teenager, was introduced to and played all his rugby league in Australia and was developed and nurtured via their junior/youth systems. This might explain his appearances for the Australian Schoolboys before turning professional.'" You mean the fijian born, fijian raised, fijian international who would admit he moved to Australia at 15 to play Rugby and take advantage of those australian systems. seems just a longer way of describing a ringer to be honest.
Quote Probably not but he's far more effective in plenty of other areas.'" Not really.
Quote No, really.'" Yes, really.
Quote Luke Lewis is way better than any player England has at their disposal. Tamou and Gillett are yet to establish themselves IMO. Smith is way ahead of any player at hooker. Roby would struggle to make all those scoot scoot metres from dummy half in the NRL like he does with such ease in SL.'"
Tamou and Gillet are internationals, they are by any reasonable definition world class, we have better players than them, ergo we have world class players. And Roby doesnt make those 'easy scoot scoot' metres much now we have given up on trying to teach quality defence and teams like Wigan can throw an extra man into a tackle which is already completed then lay on for a day and a half.
Quote We agree on something finally
'" even a stopped clock is right twice a day
Quote They have an interchange bench to put their feet up after those tiring 10 to 20 minute stints.'" next to no props do 10 minute stints. very few do 20 minute stints, most do about 60mins per game. and they do a hell of a lot more in those 20 minute stints.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Biff Tannen"
I take it you dont watch much NRL'"
I watch more NRL than you and I've attended more NRL games than you.
Quote ="Biff Tannen"if you are comparing these players like for like. James Graham has been a revelation for the Bulldogs. Some of his stats week to week have been up there with the best and =#FF0000his offload style has brought a new dimension to the way the Bulldogs play. Tolman couldnt lace his boots quality wise.'"
[u Graham - the quality wise Bulldogs revelation[/u
Played: 20
Minutes Played: 1163
Avge Mins Per Game: 58
Hitups: 339
Metres: 2570
=#FF0000Offloads: 6
Tackles: 646
Missed Tackles: 23
Errors: 4
[u Tolman - the solid pro who isn't fit to lace Graham's boots[/u
Played: 21
Minutes Played: 1019
Avge Mins Per Game: 49
Hitups: 349
Metres: 2706
=#FF0000Offloads: 11
Tackles: 669
Missed Tackles: 22
Errors: 7
Tolman has played less minutes than Graham, yet he's made more tackles, more metres, more hitups and missed less tackles. Not bad for only a solid pro who isn't a revelation like Graham and who isn't fit to lace Graham's boots.
Quote ="Biff Tannen"Ellis has been injured most of season and it has hurt Wests who are only just scraping into playoffs.'"
This season, the Tigers have won 8 out of 13 games when Ellis has been out injured. That's a win percentage of 61.5% when Ellis doesn't play. The Tigers have won 3 out of 8 games - win percentage of only 37.5% when Ellis has played.
During Ellis's entire NRL career for the Tigers, they have played 97 games. Ellis has played in 72 of them and missed 25 due to injury. When Ellis plays, the Tigers win percentage is 54.2% from 39 wins and 33 losses out of 72. When Ellis is absent, the Tigers win percentage is 68.0% from 17 wins and 8 losses out of 25.
Clearly, according to those stats it really hurts the Tigers when Ellis does not play as opposed to when he does play.
Quote ="Biff Tannen"3 player of the year awards says it all though.'"
Indeed, it says that his team mates at the Tigers like him a lot, in the same way that Ryan Hinchcliffe wins the player of the year award at Melbourne Storm ahead of Smith and Slater et al. And that's all it says.
Quote ="Biff Tannen"I dont rate Heighington and agree he is just a solid pro. No better than several of what we have in Super League and dont believe he was good enough for England.'"
[u Heighington - the solid pro who you don't rate[/u
Played: 17
Minutes Played: 1160
Avge Mins Per Game: 68
Hitups: 224 - Avge 13.2
Metres: 1567 - Avge 92.2
Offloads: 24 - Avge 1.41
Tackles: 443 - Avge 26.1
Missed Tackles: 39 - Avge - 2.29
Errors: 4
[u Ellis - who is so sexy it hurts[/u
Played: 8
Minutes Played: 506
Avge Mins Per Game: 63
Hitups: 82 - Avge 10.2
Metres: 621 - Avge 77.6
Offloads: 8 - Avge 1.00
Tackles: 218 - Avge 27.2
Missed Tackles: 25 - Avge - 3.12
Errors: 4
Heighington averages more metres, more hitups and more offloads, makes marginally less tackles than Ellis on average but doesn't miss as many. Not bad for only a solid pro who isn't in the same class as Ellis.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="SmokeyTA"Mark Calderwood won the 2008 Harry Sunderland trophy?'"
Lee Smith won it and it was Lee Smith who opposed 4-try Vatuvei that fateful day in Newcastle. I ought to know as I was there.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"You mean the fijian born, fijian raised, fijian international who would admit he moved to Australia at 15 to play Rugby and take advantage of those australian systems. seems just a longer way of describing a ringer to be honest.'"
Correct. That's the very same Fijian ringer who had never picked up a rugby ball in his life in Fiji and who joined his father in Australia at the age of 15 for schooling purposes and to aspire to a career in athletics and sprinting. The very same Fijian sprinter ringer who was talent-spotted and coached in Australia, via Australian systems by Australians. Jack Reed, Gareth Widdop and Chris Heighington told me to say that.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Tamou and Gillet are internationals, they are by any reasonable definition world class, we have better players than them, ergo we have world class players.'"
Who are these better players we have?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"And Roby doesnt make those 'easy scoot scoot' metres'"
How much Super League have you been watching?
Regards,
Rob Burrow.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"next to no props do 10 minute stints. very few do 20 minute stints'"
Those seats close to the interchange bench are always warm.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 3813 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2008 | 17 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Feb 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| You're missing the fact that Tolman is, at 23, not a "solid NRL player" but pretty much international class as well and would walk into the England side, alongside the excellent Graham. He'll also be in the the Australia side within the next couple of years.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 6744 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2004 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The evidence says the opposite, and if you knew anyone who worked in junior rugby at all you would know that kids dont want to be playing in cold freezing weather.'"
In the last 12 years or so ive had the opporunity to attend coaching workshops from touring sides coaches and players aswell as SL coaches. The first ones i attended were run by Shane Webke, Chris Anderson and Garry Freeman and the most recent from Tony Smith, when asked about the gulf in strenght in depth theyve all said 2 things, the weather and numbers playing the game at Junior level. I think it was Anderson that said to us, "you wouldnt go walk your dog in a pair of shorts when its -1 why would you go play footy in it?!" or words to that effect.
Im certain that as a coach, ive the best opportuity to develop the skills of my players playing summer rugby than when the lads fingers are blue and we're fighting for a 10x10m square under a flood light.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
|
Quote ="William Eve"Lee Smith won it and it was Lee Smith who opposed 4-try Vatuvei that fateful day in Newcastle. I ought to know as I was there. '" Lee Smith and Keith Senior played on the opposite side facing Jason Nightingale. Paul Sykes and Mark Calderwood lined up against Jerome Ropati and Manu Vatuvai.
Here is the report from the BBC
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 714017.stm
[i but the Kiwis hit back on 14 minutes when Paul Sykes missed Jerome Ropati and Vatuvei crashed over in the corner for the first of his tries. [/i
[iPaul Sykes struggled in the back line and on 55 minutes he was caught out of position which allowed Vatuvai to complete his hat-trick. [/i
[ifive minutes later Keith Senior beat off winger Jason Nightingale and he passed into the supporting Burrow to give him a clear run to the line. [/i
and from the Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/no ... leagueteam
[i....... should return with Ade Gardner, whose absence from the right wing proved the most obviously damaging of all.
Mark Calderwood, his original replacement, looked worryingly out of his depth, not surprisingly as he was more than four stone lighter than his opposite number, Manu Vatuvei. But it was an ankle injury to Paul Wellens late in the first half that marked the start of England's decline, as in the ensuing reshuffle the utility back Paul Sykes moved from centre to wing.
Sykes, who had been found wanting in defence in the build-up to Vatuvei's first try, was then even more embarrassingly exposed in the second half by a couple of floated passes from New Zealand's full-back Lance Hohaia that allowed the big wing to complete the softest hat-trick of his career. [/i
Next time you are at the game, try watching it a bit closer. Quote Correct. That's the very same Fijian ringer who had never picked up a rugby ball in his life in Fiji and who joined his father in Australia at the age of 15 for schooling purposes and to aspire to a career in athletics and sprinting. The very same Fijian sprinter ringer who was talent-spotted and coached in Australia, via Australian systems by Australians. Jack Reed, Gareth Widdop and Chris Heighington told me to say that.'" Uate himself said he moved over there with RL in mind [iThe Fijian-born Uate, who hails from Votua and Nadroga, moved to Australia as a 15-year old to live with his father on New South Wales' Central Coast, "He wanted me to get better schooling...and for footy,'' he said.[/i
Quote Who are these better players we have?'" We have been through this already
Quote How much Super League have you been watching?
Regards,
Rob Burrow.'" Clearly more than you if you think Rob Burrow's success at Hooker has been through quick scoots at the play the ball, it hasnt it has been by targetting tired props and squeezing through tiny gaps. Burrow does what only Burrow can do because he creates those gaps, they generally dont come around the ruck but further in field and from going to the line and leaving the defender in two minds as to whether he would pass or duck through the tackle. Burrow isnt big enough or strong enough to just steal easy metres around the ruck. Maybe you are confusing him with someone else?
Quote Those seats close to the interchange bench are always warm.'" Of course, there is no way, JP or James Graham could keep up physically with machines like Steve Pitchford and Brendan Hill
|
|
Quote ="William Eve"Lee Smith won it and it was Lee Smith who opposed 4-try Vatuvei that fateful day in Newcastle. I ought to know as I was there. '" Lee Smith and Keith Senior played on the opposite side facing Jason Nightingale. Paul Sykes and Mark Calderwood lined up against Jerome Ropati and Manu Vatuvai.
Here is the report from the BBC
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 714017.stm
[i but the Kiwis hit back on 14 minutes when Paul Sykes missed Jerome Ropati and Vatuvei crashed over in the corner for the first of his tries. [/i
[iPaul Sykes struggled in the back line and on 55 minutes he was caught out of position which allowed Vatuvai to complete his hat-trick. [/i
[ifive minutes later Keith Senior beat off winger Jason Nightingale and he passed into the supporting Burrow to give him a clear run to the line. [/i
and from the Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/no ... leagueteam
[i....... should return with Ade Gardner, whose absence from the right wing proved the most obviously damaging of all.
Mark Calderwood, his original replacement, looked worryingly out of his depth, not surprisingly as he was more than four stone lighter than his opposite number, Manu Vatuvei. But it was an ankle injury to Paul Wellens late in the first half that marked the start of England's decline, as in the ensuing reshuffle the utility back Paul Sykes moved from centre to wing.
Sykes, who had been found wanting in defence in the build-up to Vatuvei's first try, was then even more embarrassingly exposed in the second half by a couple of floated passes from New Zealand's full-back Lance Hohaia that allowed the big wing to complete the softest hat-trick of his career. [/i
Next time you are at the game, try watching it a bit closer. Quote Correct. That's the very same Fijian ringer who had never picked up a rugby ball in his life in Fiji and who joined his father in Australia at the age of 15 for schooling purposes and to aspire to a career in athletics and sprinting. The very same Fijian sprinter ringer who was talent-spotted and coached in Australia, via Australian systems by Australians. Jack Reed, Gareth Widdop and Chris Heighington told me to say that.'" Uate himself said he moved over there with RL in mind [iThe Fijian-born Uate, who hails from Votua and Nadroga, moved to Australia as a 15-year old to live with his father on New South Wales' Central Coast, "He wanted me to get better schooling...and for footy,'' he said.[/i
Quote Who are these better players we have?'" We have been through this already
Quote How much Super League have you been watching?
Regards,
Rob Burrow.'" Clearly more than you if you think Rob Burrow's success at Hooker has been through quick scoots at the play the ball, it hasnt it has been by targetting tired props and squeezing through tiny gaps. Burrow does what only Burrow can do because he creates those gaps, they generally dont come around the ruck but further in field and from going to the line and leaving the defender in two minds as to whether he would pass or duck through the tackle. Burrow isnt big enough or strong enough to just steal easy metres around the ruck. Maybe you are confusing him with someone else?
Quote Those seats close to the interchange bench are always warm.'" Of course, there is no way, JP or James Graham could keep up physically with machines like Steve Pitchford and Brendan Hill
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 489 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Sep 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2019 | Jul 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Please can I point out (before anyone else contributes) that Jeff, AP, Keith, William or whatever you want to call him has seen more NRL and attended more NRL games and England, GB games in Aus than any one else on this board (so there) and his knowledge is beyond all doubt.
Smokey, the reason that Jeff, AP, Keith, William may have been confused about Lee Smith/Mark Calderwood/Manu Vatuvei in the game in question is because he was in all probability studying cloud formations.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 18063 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"Meninga became a legend at Saints, as did Kenny & Ferguson at Wigan, Sterlo at Hull, etc. But thanks for the selective memory negatives in order to push a one-eyed club-based agenda however. It'll always be the international game over club for me any day of the week. You may wax lyrical about the Rhinos team since 2004 as much as you like but none of those players have been effective at international level and the SL competition is a joke.
I'm more interested in the benefits accruing from more of our players employed on guest stints down under particularly during the 60's, and definitely during the late 80's and early 90's. Then there's also the experience of our players facing the likes of Miles, Meninga, Lewis et al during their guest stints in the UK. The benefits for the national side were proven during that period.
I don't give a flying youknowwhat that Leeds are SL champions when they then prove their worthlessness by getting hammered soon after against real quality opposition by scorelines such as 52-4. Others choose not to be interested so they may maintain their starry-eyed admiration for their respective Super League champion players and clubs. Not alluding to anyone in particular there of course
'"
What benefits did the national side get from the stints of the top Aussies over here? Did we win any test series against the Aussies during this time?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
|
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Lee Smith and Keith Senior played on the opposite side facing Jason Nightingale. Paul Sykes and Mark Calderwood lined up against Jerome Ropati and Manu Vatuvai.
Here is the report from the BBC
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 714017.stm
[i but the Kiwis hit back on 14 minutes when Paul Sykes missed Jerome Ropati and Vatuvei crashed over in the corner for the first of his tries. [/i
[iPaul Sykes struggled in the back line and on 55 minutes he was caught out of position which allowed Vatuvai to complete his hat-trick. [/i
[ifive minutes later Keith Senior beat off winger Jason Nightingale and he passed into the supporting Burrow to give him a clear run to the line. [/i
and from the Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/no ... leagueteam
[i....... should return with Ade Gardner, whose absence from the right wing proved the most obviously damaging of all.
Mark Calderwood, his original replacement, looked worryingly out of his depth, not surprisingly as he was more than four stone lighter than his opposite number, Manu Vatuvei. But it was an ankle injury to Paul Wellens late in the first half that marked the start of England's decline, as in the ensuing reshuffle the utility back Paul Sykes moved from centre to wing.
Sykes, who had been found wanting in defence in the build-up to Vatuvei's first try, was then even more embarrassingly exposed in the second half by a couple of floated passes from New Zealand's full-back Lance Hohaia that allowed the big wing to complete the softest hat-trick of his career. [/i
Next time you are at the game, try watching it a bit closer.'"
Try watching the video rather than relying on someone else's match report. Vatuvei ran over Ellis and Smith to ground the ball for his first try. Calderwood switched wings for most of the 2nd half to play alongside Senior on the left. What Smith was doing during Vatuvei's 2nd and 3rd tries is anyone's guess apart from having a perfect close-up view of both and pointing the finger at others defensive errors. Smith was roaming everywhere and nowhere during that game like a headless chicken, as well being out of position for Nightingale's 1st half try. Smith was dropped for the Semi Final a week later in favour of Gardner and Calderwood. I wonder why?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Uate himself said he moved over there with RL in mind'"
Nope, his own motivation was running in the olympics.
[url=http://www.islandsbusiness.com/fiji_business/index_dynamic/containerNameToReplace=MiddleMiddle/focusModuleID=19419/overideSkinName=issueArticle-full.tpl[uIn his boyhood, Uate dreamt not of playing in the NRL, but running in the Olympics..."I always used to love watching the Olympics, the 200 metres and 400 metres,'' Uate said. But Uate's athletic ability could not go unnoticed. The lure of Olympic medals and the running track almost stole him. With little more than a year's worth of track sprinting experience, the teenager travelled to Homebush and ran 100 metres in 10.9sec at the 2005 NSW Combined High Schools carnival. "When I came here, it was heaps hard to choose between running and league,'' he said. "I used to catch the train straight after school from the Central Coast and travel to Newcastle for SG Ball training every afternoon, then travel back at around 11 o'clock at night. "I did it for two years. I had to make one decision, and that was to play rugby league.[/u[/url
I'm pleased we've established that the Fijian Ringer (your words) wasn't a ringer at all but an Australian produced rugby league player whose personal dreams and motivation for moving to Australia - along with schooling - was to be a sprinter in the Olympics and not the NRL.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"We have been through this already'"
And the English players you claim are better have failed to back it up on the international stage.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Clearly more than you if you think Rob Burrow's success at Hooker has been through quick scoots at the play the ball'"
You must have missed his quick scoots from dummy half in wide open space which were instrumental in Leeds Grand Final victory last year.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Of course, there is no way, JP or James Graham could keep up physically with machines like Steve Pitchford and Brendan Hill'"
Interesting choices for comparison purposes. No agenda there obviously
|
|
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Lee Smith and Keith Senior played on the opposite side facing Jason Nightingale. Paul Sykes and Mark Calderwood lined up against Jerome Ropati and Manu Vatuvai.
Here is the report from the BBC
news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 714017.stm
[i but the Kiwis hit back on 14 minutes when Paul Sykes missed Jerome Ropati and Vatuvei crashed over in the corner for the first of his tries. [/i
[iPaul Sykes struggled in the back line and on 55 minutes he was caught out of position which allowed Vatuvai to complete his hat-trick. [/i
[ifive minutes later Keith Senior beat off winger Jason Nightingale and he passed into the supporting Burrow to give him a clear run to the line. [/i
and from the Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/no ... leagueteam
[i....... should return with Ade Gardner, whose absence from the right wing proved the most obviously damaging of all.
Mark Calderwood, his original replacement, looked worryingly out of his depth, not surprisingly as he was more than four stone lighter than his opposite number, Manu Vatuvei. But it was an ankle injury to Paul Wellens late in the first half that marked the start of England's decline, as in the ensuing reshuffle the utility back Paul Sykes moved from centre to wing.
Sykes, who had been found wanting in defence in the build-up to Vatuvei's first try, was then even more embarrassingly exposed in the second half by a couple of floated passes from New Zealand's full-back Lance Hohaia that allowed the big wing to complete the softest hat-trick of his career. [/i
Next time you are at the game, try watching it a bit closer.'"
Try watching the video rather than relying on someone else's match report. Vatuvei ran over Ellis and Smith to ground the ball for his first try. Calderwood switched wings for most of the 2nd half to play alongside Senior on the left. What Smith was doing during Vatuvei's 2nd and 3rd tries is anyone's guess apart from having a perfect close-up view of both and pointing the finger at others defensive errors. Smith was roaming everywhere and nowhere during that game like a headless chicken, as well being out of position for Nightingale's 1st half try. Smith was dropped for the Semi Final a week later in favour of Gardner and Calderwood. I wonder why?
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Uate himself said he moved over there with RL in mind'"
Nope, his own motivation was running in the olympics.
[url=http://www.islandsbusiness.com/fiji_business/index_dynamic/containerNameToReplace=MiddleMiddle/focusModuleID=19419/overideSkinName=issueArticle-full.tpl[uIn his boyhood, Uate dreamt not of playing in the NRL, but running in the Olympics..."I always used to love watching the Olympics, the 200 metres and 400 metres,'' Uate said. But Uate's athletic ability could not go unnoticed. The lure of Olympic medals and the running track almost stole him. With little more than a year's worth of track sprinting experience, the teenager travelled to Homebush and ran 100 metres in 10.9sec at the 2005 NSW Combined High Schools carnival. "When I came here, it was heaps hard to choose between running and league,'' he said. "I used to catch the train straight after school from the Central Coast and travel to Newcastle for SG Ball training every afternoon, then travel back at around 11 o'clock at night. "I did it for two years. I had to make one decision, and that was to play rugby league.[/u[/url
I'm pleased we've established that the Fijian Ringer (your words) wasn't a ringer at all but an Australian produced rugby league player whose personal dreams and motivation for moving to Australia - along with schooling - was to be a sprinter in the Olympics and not the NRL.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"We have been through this already'"
And the English players you claim are better have failed to back it up on the international stage.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Clearly more than you if you think Rob Burrow's success at Hooker has been through quick scoots at the play the ball'"
You must have missed his quick scoots from dummy half in wide open space which were instrumental in Leeds Grand Final victory last year.
Quote ="SmokeyTA"Of course, there is no way, JP or James Graham could keep up physically with machines like Steve Pitchford and Brendan Hill'"
Interesting choices for comparison purposes. No agenda there obviously
|
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Hacked Off"Please can I point out (before anyone else contributes) that Jeff, AP, Keith, William or whatever you want to call him has seen more NRL and attended more NRL games and England, GB games in Aus than any one else on this board (so there) and his knowledge is beyond all doubt.
Smokey, the reason that Jeff, AP, Keith, William may have been confused about Lee Smith/Mark Calderwood/Manu Vatuvei in the game in question is because he was in all probability studying cloud formations.'"
And right on cue, one of my hacked off stalkers turns up
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 489 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Sep 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2019 | Jul 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"And right on cue, one of my hacked off stalkers turns up
'"
Hardly Jeff, your first post on this thread....page 2, 7th Aug your usual agenda long and drawn out full of wind.
My half d effort......page 9, some 5 days later so not quite sure what you mean by 'And right on cue'.
I think you want a stalker...you sick little puppy
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Sal Paradise"What benefits did the national side get from the stints of the top Aussies over here? Did we win any test series against the Aussies during this time?'"
[url=http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingTraditions/2000/st1602/ST1602i.pdfThis article may be of interest to you[/url.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 22289 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2003 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2024 | Aug 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"
[uGraham - the quality wise Bulldogs revelation[/u
Played: 20
Minutes Played: 1163
Avge Mins Per Game: 58
Hitups: 339
Metres: 2570
=#FF0000Offloads: 6
Tackles: 646
Missed Tackles: 23
Errors: 4
'"
I imagine it was intended as a reference to Graham's passing before contact rather than offloading as such. Do you have a comparitive of the passing stats?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 11412 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Sep 2010 | 14 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2021 | Jul 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"
You must have missed his quick scoots from dummy half in wide open space which were instrumental in Leeds Grand Final victory last year.'"
You mean that single one scoot that led to Hall's try? The one were he ran across to the left and not straight at the line in the traditional hooker way and was helped by a pi$$ poor effort by Scott Moore who was 2 defenders across from the markers who helped open up the space for Burrow. Apart from his try and setting up Hall's try Burrow didn't have too much else of note in the final, and he didn't need to.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="tvoc"I imagine it was intended as a reference to Graham's passing before contact rather than offloading as such. Do you have a comparitive of the passing stats?'"
The burden of proof for the aforementioned added-dimension offloading style lies with the claimant.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="ThePrinter"You mean that single one scoot that led to Hall's try? The one were he ran across to the left and not straight at the line in the traditional hooker way and was helped by a pi$$ poor effort by Scott Moore who was 2 defenders across from the markers who helped open up the space for Burrow. Apart from his try and setting up Hall's try Burrow didn't have too much else of note in the final, and he didn't need to.'"
Harry Sunderland's are given away these days.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 22289 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2003 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2024 | Aug 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"The burden of proof for the aforementioned added-dimension offloading style lies with the claimant.'"
So that's a no then. Fair enough.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 4938 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2018 | Mar 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="tvoc"So that's a no then. Fair enough.'"
Ask Biff Tannen - I'm sure he will substantiate his claim with officially recognised statistical evidence for his offloads assertion.
OTOH, if you're that interested, you could get in touch with those responsible for collating the NRL stats and request that they include stats for passing prior to contact dimension?
I wouldn't bother asking for the same from Opta however. And even if they did, they'd probably allocate said stats to someone else entirely or , more likely fail to register them completely.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 6848 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2024 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="tvoc"I imagine it was intended as a reference to Graham's passing before contact rather than offloading as such. Do you have a comparitive of the passing stats?'"
Yes, this is more what i was getting at.And the fact that the opposition are put in doubt about what JG is going to do when getting the ball,he is seen as a danger man,which can never be shown in stats alone.If you watch the Bulldogs since JG joined it seems the other forwards have adopted his way of playing with the offloads before the line and it has made the team very dangerous as a whole.Hence,why i claim him to be a revelation.
The point is,and i dont think it matters what i say because Billy Eve will always have an agenda against English players,but here goes.Ellis and Graham are World Class,would Wests and Bulldogs be paying top 'marquee' money for them if they were not? i havnt heard any comebacks from down under that these 2 are over rated and just 'solid pros' that are pinching top money.
Luke Burgess,now there is an example of an englishman who has gone down under and become 'a good solid NRL pro' but who would put him in the same class as Ellis,Sam Burgess and Graham? not many i would wager!
That said,Tolman getting MOM today you must have seen that coming
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 22289 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2003 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2024 | Aug 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"Ask Biff Tannen - I'm sure he will substantiate his claim with officially recognised statistical evidence for his offloads assertion.
'"
I suppose he could just try watching the video rather than relying on someone else's statistical analysis. That appeared the way to go earlier.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 22777 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2006 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jun 2020 | Feb 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"Try watching the video rather than relying on someone else's match report. Vatuvei ran over Ellis and Smith to ground the ball for his first try. Calderwood switched wings for most of the 2nd half to play alongside Senior on the left. What Smith was doing during Vatuvei's 2nd and 3rd tries is anyone's guess apart from having a perfect close-up view of both and pointing the finger at others defensive errors. Smith was roaming everywhere and nowhere during that game like a headless chicken, as well being out of position for Nightingale's 1st half try. Smith was dropped for the Semi Final a week later in favour of Gardner and Calderwood. I wonder why?'"
Well he certainly wasnt being Paul Sykes, the player to actually play on the right wing after Wellens injury and Calderwoods switch, with Gleeson who had started at stand-off moving to centre. I wonder where Harry Sunderland winning fullback Lee Smith may have moved to? Its quite an impressive level of nonsense you have descended to that you are now blaming Smith for the left wing and the right wing in that game and bemoaning him for 'roaming everywhere and nowhere', im not surprised if he was both the left and right winger when Mark Calderwood and then Paul Sykes played right wing.
Quote Nope, his own motivation was running in the olympics. [url=http://www.islandsbusiness.com/fiji_business/index_dynamic/containerNameToReplace=MiddleMiddle/focusModuleID=19419/overideSkinName=issueArticle-full.tpl[uIn his boyhood, Uate dreamt not of playing in the NRL, but running in the Olympics..."I always used to love watching the Olympics, the 200 metres and 400 metres,'' Uate said. But Uate's athletic ability could not go unnoticed. The lure of Olympic medals and the running track almost stole him. With little more than a year's worth of track sprinting experience, the teenager travelled to Homebush and ran 100 metres in 10.9sec at the 2005 NSW Combined High Schools carnival. "When I came here, it was heaps hard to choose between running and league,'' he said. "I used to catch the train straight after school from the Central Coast and travel to Newcastle for SG Ball training every afternoon, then travel back at around 11 o'clock at night. "I did it for two years. I had to make one decision, and that was to play rugby league.[/u[/url
I'm pleased we've established that the Fijian Ringer (your words) wasn't a ringer at all but an Australian produced rugby league player whose personal dreams and motivation for moving to Australia - along with schooling - was to be a sprinter in the Olympics and not the NRL.
'" No, what we have seen is you display an awful level of comprehension and hope no one noticed. Uate said, outright he moved to Australia because [i"He(his father) wanted me to get better schoolling...and for footy,''[/i. Ill take what Uate says himself over your strange belief that it being a difficult decision to choose Athletics or League and him choosing League meant he never liked league and wanted to be sprinter.
Quote And the English players you claim are better have failed to back it up on the international stage.'" No, they havent. As I said, its pretty naive to think that Australia being a better side mean they are better man for man in every position.
Quote You must have missed his quick scoots from dummy half in wide open space which were instrumental in Leeds Grand Final victory last year.'" I remember him ducking under a tackle from NRL ubermenschen Tony Puletua in the 33rd minute having received the ball as first reciever, and setting up a Ryan Hall try running sideways until Scott Moore defending as 3rd man out from the ptb, shot out of the line, missed his tackle, Burrow then turned on the speed before throwing an outrageous dummy which third on the NZ Warriors all time try scoring list, NZ international and NRL ubermenschen Francis Meli is still looking for, and offloading to Hall for the score. It was a wonderful piece of skill off a fairly slow ptb. Maybe you confused Burrow with someone else?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 489 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Sep 2008 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2019 | Jul 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Dont take too much notice of William....he is a fog knitter of the highest calibre!
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 22289 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2003 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Sep 2024 | Aug 2018 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="William Eve"Lee Smith won it and it was Lee Smith who opposed 4-try Vatuvei that fateful day in Newcastle. I ought to know as I was there.
'"
I presume you mean directly opposed as in tasked with marking his opposite wingman?
Vatuvei played on the left wing throughout the 80 mins. He was basically opposed by Calderwood for the opening 38 mins until the injured Wellens was replaced by Sinfield although Calderwood and Wellens briefly switched after the latter's injury in the 34th minute. The Wellens substitution resulted in Sykes moving from right centre to right wing to oppose Vatuvei (for the next 22 minutes), Calderwood moving from right wing to left wing with Smith moving from left wing to full-back.
That formation remained until the 60th minute when coach Smith finally shifted the hopeless Sykes from the right wing to full back, Smith moving from full-back back on to the left wing, with Calderwood moving back across to face Vatuvei again over on the right wing. Sykes then fumbled his first touch in the full-back position and coach Smith replaced him with Wellens returning.
I don't recall Lee Smith being tasked with opposing Manu Vatuvei directly at any point over the full 80 minutes that both played, although I'm obviously at a severe disadvantage sat watching the game from the opposite side of the globe.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 9565 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
May 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2019 | Dec 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Don't let facts get in the way of a ridiculous argument. Where will it end??
In terms of opinions, I'll go with the numerous judges who rate Ellis one of the best forwards in the NRL, and Gus Gould (who generally bags anything and everything British) who reckons that Graham has been a major factor behind the Dogs' run. As someone else said, its ridiculous to suggest that because GB/Wngland have been hammered with Graham, Morley, Ellis in the side that they haven't been great players. I'd quite happily swap any and all forwards in return for the halfbacks and outside backs Australia have had at their disposal.
|
|
|
|
|