Here's hoping.



Efforts like tackling Diskin after Ben had played the ball are incidents which don't help his cause, and alas those of the team.

That gifted the Bulls a cheap 2 points, you just feel that the mental time-bomb that is Ben Cross would do exactly the same thing if we were winning by a sole point with only 1 play left.

My personal opinion ATM is Hauraki's defence is too weak to play first grade. For every try he sets up or break he makes, he misses 2 or 3 tackles that often lead to tries against us. He's not old though and I reckon will be a good player for us but injured or not, he deserves to be sat out at the moment.

Cross on the other hand just gives too many penalties away. I think McDermott has made a statement now that Cross is 6th choice in the front row. Im happy with that too if Kirke can carry on like he played Monday. Neither of those will play though when everyone is fully fit. It's good though that we have 6 props named in this weeks squad because we can rotate them for the rest of the season keeping us fresh if needed.

Juan won't be happy. He put alot of effort into that stat bending.

We all know who Mac will have as his number 1 prop.

And yet you've left Cross (who didn't play on Monday) out, at the expense of Kirke (who did)?


Edit - I agree with the rest of it! And agree that neither should make the 17 if JP is fit.

You have confused me... Cross is included in the 6. ATM it looks like the order is,

Bailey
Leuluai
Burgess
Peacock
Kirke
Cross

Sorry, my fault. I mean in this weeks squad. You say it's good we have 6 props so we can rotate (in general), yet this week, decided not to rotate them, because Kirke played Monday & Cross didn't. Just curious as to why that's all.

Just seen the other thread and see what you mean now. I've gone for Kirke because he gives less penalties away and played very well Monday. Plus lets face it, he hasnt put himself about to be tired enough in the games before that

We need the strongest squad possible for this weekend. I meant rotating for the rest of the season when needed. This week is a big game because a win puts us back in the mix and only a couple of wins off top.

On the contrary Leuluai's Leeds career average metre per carry was 7.88m in the 4 seasons he played before this one. This season his average per carry is only 6.66m - the first time he has dropped below 7m. Indeed in his first season he averaged 8.84m per carry followed by 7.65 twice and 7.40 last season.

Likewise his tackle count has dropped from a 4 season average of 16.22 tackles per game to his 14.86 this season. He is missing an average of 2 tackles per game this season against an average of 1.17 and penalties. He is giving away 0.71 penalties per game against an average of 0.39 and his tackle busts have declined from 0.91 per game to 0.43 per game. For the great majority of the above he has declined season on season.

He was noted for legally hurting the opposition forwards but IMO this has also regressed.

Like I said evidence of one of several players who are looking past their peak. I like Kylie and hope he regains his form, but to write off Cross when he is at the least putting in the same or more work than the most of the other props is unfair.

Despite Kirke's efforts on Monday, I still think Cross adds more to the squad than Kirke (which is like saying I'd rather lose an arm than a leg!).

I can see what you're saying and I admit, theres nothing in them as far as choice goes. The only thing that sways me is Cross' stupid penalties that get us on the back foot.

But Kirke is our own sh-it. Simples.

Or we could have signed Andy Coley and saved on the air fare.

Of course he is in my 17 as well.

I am merely trying to point out that Cross is putting in as many or more tackles and his metres per carry are as good, as most of our other props. When you consider his game time he possibly has the highest workrate of our props.

That's all well and good and a fair point but as others have pointed out JC his penalties conceded go against him and as high as his work-rate is it doesn't have the impact Kylies does imo.

You have to look at the semantics and context in the game.

Kylie and Bailey were both outstanding in the opening quarter. They won the battle of the ruck and dominated. They worked hard and got on the front foot and put their shoulders in the tackle.

They set the platform. Which softened them up. So when Biff and Kirke rolled on we had the swing and kept the momentum.

So who had the hardest shift in game terms?

Who will get the glory in the stats list?

Does it really matter? End of the day the pack got the job done.

The stand-out no brainers in terms of our ideal 4 props would be (in alphabetical order of course) Bailey, Burgess, Leuluai, Peacock. I doubt many would argue with that.

You never get to seem to play your ideal 17, so with injuries and rotation, when we have bodies back we have a lot of options and fights for spots. Which is what you need to see.

How is that worse than Bailey losing his temper, having a punch up and getting sent off? Great help for his team!

You also seem to have forgotten Baileys errors/penalties that lead to the opposition scoring tries?

Your hero Bailey has made more errors per game than Cross and given away more penalties per game than Cross and made more missed tackles per game than Cross and of course more red cards than Cross. But has made fewer marker tackles per game than Cross and even made fewer runs from dummy half than Cross.

I am not saying Cross is a top prop but please don't pretend that Bailey, Kirke or Kylie on this seasons form are any better. Our best prop this season in Burgess.

In stat terms it's a tick in the wrong box, sure.

In context, i.e. what actually happened in the game, it's a simple 'meh' It didn't cause Leeds a problem, we were beat anyway, and he also got another bloke off as well and if anything in game terms it was actually a positive because it raised Leeds' fighting spirits and there was suddenly a spark in the pack that wasn't there before Bailey swung.

Cross has given away 5 penalties the same as Kylie and Burgess with Bailey the worst with 4 in 4 games.

I accept he gave away a stupid 2 points against Bradford but no worse than Bailey's errors that have led to tries.

Are you disputing the facts?



Yes Burgess this season

Yup, Cross isn't a top prop. His 100 pro games can be of further reading for a man of his 30's.

And he's never scored a try you know, bet you knew that anyway.

Cross' form is probably on an overall level with the gentle giant. Toss a coin on that one.

I feel that the impact Kylie carries far outways the level that Cross brings to the table.

As for Bailey, your having a laugh right? His form since a 6 month lay-off has been top draw. The acclaim that Mac has highlighted in this area has been one of the main areas that has impressed me. He is running in tough, marshalling the defensive line and is head and shoulders above Cross no debate. At all.

Bailey is no-where near 100% fitness either, God knows what we will have on our hands later in the season.

I know he gave away 2 points with that stupid penalty against Bradford but he has given away a total of 5 penalties in 9 games. Hardly a problem for a prop but when you compare with Kylie (5 in 7 games) Bailey (4 in 4 games) Burgess (5 in 8 games) he gives away less penalties per game than all of our props except Kirke. So whats his problem with penalties?

Yes.

I look beyond them.

I think you are missing my point. This post is about how bad Cross & Hauraki are. Whilst I agree that Hauraki has been terrible i am defending the overall performance of Cross. Many on here have missed the contribution that he has made which, as I have pointed out, is as good as most of the other props.

I am suprised at you BB, as you like the rough tough stuff. Cross is a big tough guy who does what it says on the tin. He never was going to be a replacement of JP stature but he has a good work rate, good tackle count, not bad metre per carry and is a better hard man than the likes of Kirke. He has come into a team which has had a huge injury list and that is not playing well. So all I am saying is give him a chance.

Oh come on BB. Thats putting some gloss on it.

The 2 points Cross gave away didn't cause Leeds a problem either. We won that game.

Is it though?

That's what happened. Or what's your story? What did you conclude from the incident?

The score-line didn't blow out after the incident and we got on the board.

That game was gone, and it didn't determine the result, similar to the Cross penalty. I'll give you that.