I think you answer your own question in paragraph one in just one line, about just one player. It all relies on Peacock, plain and simple. An injury to him, and it isn't worth considering.

Never actually said it relies on him. I actually highlighted Singleton, Ablett, Delaney and Ward too. Is he the key player in the pack? Yes......but look at any team (in any sport) and they have key players they would dearly miss. The salary cap doesn't allow for you to have a spare Peacock in reserve in case he gets injured. We aren't Man City with a wealth of reserves on stanby and could never be with the structures of the sport.

Take Peacock and Sinfield out and yes we will be doomed. Same can be said for O'Loughlin and McIlorum, Brough and Crabtree, Hill and Myler, Roby and Lomax.

Peacock (or others like JJB, Leuluai, Delaney) MIGHT have an injury hit year.....but that some have already confirmed/accepted it as a guarantee is a massive guess based on last years events. If going by 2013 should we also expect BJB to get a serious illness too?

That I mentioned that we have the best forward of 2013 in our team alongside these others encourages me......on the other hand it seems to send the fear of god among some people for some reason I can only assume is part of the pre-set doom that they've said will happen for near on a decade now.

We have the best prop of 2013 at our club.....
Glass half full crowd = "great, what an advantage to our club."
Glass half empty crowd = "damn, he'll get injured and we'll be screwed because we don't have another MOS-esque prop at our salary capped club.

"He might get injured".....yes and so might any other player who takes the field in SL this year, for Leeds or Wigan or Wire or Hudds or Saints or anyone.

Printer-Lets get one thing perfectly clear i'm as optimistic as anyone attend most games win lose or draw all this "us and them" is tedious and boring now.
I genuinely believe on our day we can beat anyone in this League and can certainly make both finals if luck goes our way along with performing to our undoubted potential.
Every single opinion i form (team wise etc) is based on seeing the games ,looking at the squad especially depth and also the Coaching ,defence/offence structure etc.
Am i claiming to be always right or looking for some sort of points scoring tit-for-tat sh##e? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
JP carried this pack last year and is a "one -off" RL Legend and as i've posted many many times i rate Singleton highly but given how we performed or more importantly how experienced players performed when hit the injuries for me it remains a concern.
Now not for one minute have i nor have seen anyone else post that we expect to have a squad of forwards in the calibre of JP or that we expect elite performances week in week out from them.
kylie imo his form dipped after a strong start and whether you agree or not i think his age is an issue not every game but noticeable ,kirke remans again imo not good enough ,Bailey last year was awful his worse season at Leeds imo.
Jjb/Delaney are both imo very good BR's but both are and were battered whilst selected many times carrying injuries that blatantly meant they shouldn't be out there.
Ablett suffered loss of form over a number of games ,Clarkson had no impact in the little gametime he saw.
Ward unfortunately picked up a serious knock and Achurch was in and out of the team and picked up some tough injuries.
Now hopefully luck wise it will change but i still think we lack Another tough 1st 17 prop ala Kylie when he first joined ,as well as a destructive offloading BR (maybe Achurch).
Then again there's the rotation issue i dont care what trophies we won during 2/3 of the last years the Caoch imo blatantly got his selections and rotations wrong last year and our reliance on JP to carry the pack is gonna bite us again its my own opinion.

In this game Singleton reminded me of a young James Graham, I hope he continues like that.

The thing is Printer you moved from the question "why there is a concern about our pack" to something completely different.

You are correct that injuries can happen, you have a point on the examples you gave. But the key is about the pack. Pivot players will always be a risk for any team incase of injuries. The difference here is the forwards, the yardage makers, not the pivots. Peacock is so far ahead of the other forwards in this side, it is like comparing Australia and Oldham. He has carried this pack for the last couple of years, last year especially. I can't think of another side where there is that big a chasm between the forwards.

Singleton potentially will become a very good player, but he isn't close yet. Bailey, Kirke, and Kylie can't come anything close. Although you don't like to accept it, and entirely your opinion, the truth is if Peacock, Bailey, Kylie, and Kirke are fit, Singleton won't get selected. Therefore we are back to Peacock.

That is the reason for the pack concerns. Yes you won't get six Peacocks. But you can have better than we have as back up.

Also why say people have predicted doom for a decade? That is just not needed, and untrue as well you know. Nobody on these boards have said anything close to such a thing.

Not far wrong mate. Singleton is constantly impressive when he is on the field. hes not all BASH for 10 mins and fades, he always seems on it. Big tank with a big appetite to drive in the ball.

IMO he should be in the ideal 17 week in week out if he plays to the standards he's set.

When is Stevie Ward due back?

Ward says he'll be ready for the opening game. Done a lot of contact drills with no reaction to the shoulder.

Be surprised if he doesn't get at least one run at Under 20 level or for Hunslet before he's in the first team though

Stevie?

Sounds like a girly name.

Is he actually called Stevie?

Back in the 70s I went to school with a lad called Stevie. I remember when went to secondary school one of the teachers said to him on his first day “You’re called Stevie??? Are bloody American or something?”

Gawd know what the bloke would have made of today’s kids names like Heaven-Leigh or middle class ones like Ptolemy or Ocelot.

'Appen parents nowadays.......back in t'day they were nowt wrong with a good old Arthur, George and Frank, or Barbara, Mavis and Ethel.

My more "us and them" was more a reply to Gotcha than yourself. But it still holds weight, you reviewed the match against London and used the term "the pack remain a concern for me"........why?

Why based ON THAT PERFORMANCE does the pack concern you? You listed old reasons. I absolutely don't mind criticism of the team when justified. Like you point out, you're free to your observations as a paying supporter (I've never said anybody can't post what they think, I've always merely challenged it) but I'm free to mine, and I believe I'm free to challenge others on here on a public forum.

Leuluai? Form dropped? Looking at his stats they hold steady compared to all other years he's been here.
Bailey? Always been an up and down character for years, he's had disappointing seasons and them come back again, 2012 for example I thought he played very well.
Kirke? Much debated before, I've said before I don't expect to see him in the 17 every week nowadays and that he's been used as a poster boy for "all that's wrong at the club" is OTT.
Ablett? Form dipped? Maybe at times, that's sport, he was also probably our best player in the last month and was sensational in the game against Saints (note having Briscoe added to the backs means Ablett can possibly spend a full season in the forwards, hence making us stronger there.
JJB/Delaney/Achurch/Ward? Reasons given for all.....injuries. Like you point out, luck. Can't be predicted no matter the skill or age of your team.

You want a new destructive prop? Well Singleton is making further inroads into the team. I know some will tell you we missed the boat on him or been too slow in his development and held him back. He's made the starting thirteen 9 times before reaching his 21st birthday, James Graham made 13 (and only 2 were as a prop).

You want a new destructive offloading BR? Sorry but some seem to have got carried away with nostalgia with when we signed Ali Lauitiiti and believe these kind of players grow on trees, the sport isn't full of them and if they were they'd be too expensive for us and be in the NRL most likely.

The rotation thing in 2013 I find quite funny. Did anybody else look at the fixture schedule? Firstly we have to go strong to prepare for Melbourne. After that we have a very tough run including Saints, Catalans and HKR away, Wigan and Wire at home and also the Easter game vs Bradford, who may have finished poorly but those with some memory might remember them flying quite high at that point int the table and put on one of their best showings at. Headingley in several years. We faced SL opposition in both rounds of the CC, personally I want them to go for that and not "rest" anybody. By the time we got to the likes of your Widnes, Wakey, London, Salford and Cas post WCC, we'd picked up a whole bunch of injuries and rotation wasn't an option as it became a whoever is still fit scenario.

Unlike yourself I actually do care that we won trophies in the last 2/3 years, it shows we have players who know how to get over that finishing line. It's not a gimme that if we replace them with younger players they carry on that.

You say "our reliance on JP is gunna bite us again"????.....did it actually bite us last year? Was that the true cause? We made more metres last year than we have since 2005. The last season before Peacock arrived and we've won 5 GF in that time.

I actually answered your post on the previous page, yet you didn't have the decency to respond to it, either rubbish it or defend it.

You talk about all the above on the fact that we made more metres as a team last year than previous. You are correct.

Although when looking at stats, it's always worthwhile looking at the detail if you want to use them. We have talked about the fundamental importance of Peacock. Last year he made 4040 metres on his own, compared with 2810 metres in 2012, and 1618 metres in 2011. If that is not a dramatic swing in the importance of one player, I don't know what is.

By contrast Kylie made 1860 metres in 2013, 2005 metres in 2012. Bailey made 750 metres in 2013, 1034 in 2012. Brett Delany made 1480 metres in 2013, and made 2201 in 2012.

Now compare and contrast with the Saints and Warrington pack, and see just how evenly spread their yardage makers are. And that is why people have a concern with our pack, the over reliance on one metre maker.

Your point of making more metres by the way is a big part of not just Peacock from a point of view, but also the switch of Hardaker to fullback, whom also makes a lot of metres. But of course that doesn't hide the fact of how we do not have an even pack of forwards.

I dunno. That's what he seems to get called. I don't know the guy personally.

When is Steven Ward likely to be fit to return to the Leeds Rhinos first team match day line up?

Happy now, Willy?

The pack remains a concern because its the same pack as last year Aiton aside and no unnopposed training run v the 2014 Whippping boys will change that view!
RE-Leuleui did he finish the final 3rd of the season as strong as he started based on what you saw not what's written on paper?? for me NO.
Again Bailey i'm talking last year his most recent season not 2012!
Kirke this not seen as 1st choice 17 much he's been 1st choice 17 for years and the Coach thinks so i personally don't think he's good enough and (finishing the Season strong in a couple of games doesn't change that.
Abblett again i stand by my view he was poor at times yet again got selected irrespective of that.
Injuries has been covered.
Onto rotation lets make it more straight forward why does JP have to be playing 60+mins or even at all in games against the likes of Cas ,Salford ,Widnes ,Wakey etc when we had Moore + Singleton more than capable of playing?
How come when clearly carrying injuries and more liabillity than worth are the likes of Delaney and Jjb in the 17 when again we had the depth to cover.
As for caring about the trophies we've won in the cold light of day moving forward they don't mean a right lot when the players who won them are either older ,slower ,injured or not performing.
Stats can show what they like ,what did we win last year and how did we get in the CC/play offs?
Relying on JP will bite us "again" because simply the others around him dont or cant take some of his work-load or with Mcdermotts methods case dont get chance to.
We've evolved the back line to have potentially the most potent in the SL for a long time yet the pack IMO still needs work.
Finally you've not once mentioned the structures we employed with and without the ball are they all ok aswell because we won GF's in the past?
The GF wins and finals etc have been outstanding as have the players that won them but that doesn't automatically point to us getting to them let alone winning them by standing still.

It is important to look at the details. How much of Peacock's importance (and metres made) in 2013 was down to his staying fit when others didn't? I wouldn't argue that he was our best forward but who else actually stayed injury-free long enough, or was selected frequently enough, to balance things out a bit better?

I don't have these stats to hand by the way, just wondered whether this was was a factor.

It's a valid point mate, but a point that backs up everything that others are saying. It can't work both ways. It can't be said that injuries happen tough, then say well he only made the yards because he wasn't injured.

The fact is that others have gone backwards in their metre making, and Peacock has increased his by more than double over two seasons. Some players are most definitely work shy and leave it to the man who's importance is fundamental to this side. Without him, on the evidence of the last two seasons, that side would be struggling.

Be carefull you will be seen as a moaner and forever critical of the coach and the players who have won a zillion GF rings between them.
Some people need to stop living in the past and look to the future and how we can stay at the top and win more finals in an entertaining manner.

This post is typical of why I respect Rhinoms' posts the best. He is undoubtedly an incontrovertible loyal true supporter, but has the capacity to also be insightful and not be afraid to highlight problems.
Some on here seem to delight in suggesting everything in the garden is rosey and the club should be devoid of any criticism. ...largely because of PAST achievements.

For me we have enough grunt and ability in our forward pack. The issue is likely to be one of how well conditioned they are.

I think the concerns are valid. At the same time if we get 3 or 4 of these forwards playing as well as I think they still can, then we have a pack that can compete with anyone. We didn't see that last year for a variety of reasons.

I see grounds for optimism in the expected transition of Singleton into a key part of the pack this year, and in Aiton who I think has been brought in to give energy and structure in defence more than game management in attack. Hopefully Ward can also have more input this year, and Bailey and JJB will be looking for big years I think. Clarkson stalled a bit last year IMO, but I think there's still potential there. Needs to pick his lines better among other things.

So, my optimism is not blind. It's cautious optimism. There are a lot of 'ifs' in there. But that would be the case if we'd brought in 2 or 3 new faces as well.

Longer term, we still need to recruit and promote. To be honest #7 is the position I am most concerned about replacing when the Golden Generation (TM) call it a day. There are more good forwards than good half backs knocking around.

The stats tell a different story, and indeed with Peacock the exception the rest are not producing what they were previously.



Wouldn't disagree with that at all. Although the evidence of the last couple of seasons would say you probably have to be optimistic.



This totally agree with. Although the evidence would point to the situation that if Peacock, Bailey, Kirke, and Kylie are all fit and available, that Singleton will miss out.

Interesting your point on Clarkson. I blame this coach in regressing this player. However, the stats would show that he actually had the equivalent season of Delaney last year in most areas.




I agree with this. The issue with the forwards though is that as a club we haven't moved to pick up these good forwards, despite evidence showing we have a glaring need to. I still also think that six as well as seven is not sorted.

For me I think we have a good squad and one that can compete. My concern is that they will not be best utilised.

For me, we need to get the bets out of Peacock, and I would say limit his involvement so that he is more effective. Bailey & Kirke need to step up here.
Singleton should become a first team player this year. he should take some of the load as he looks very keen.

We now have more competition in the halves, with Burrow effectively free'd up. My preference would be Burrow & Sinfield, as it provides XFactor and organisation. We have Sutcliffe and McGuire fighting to make the 13.

With Ward back, we have more back row options, which means that the likes of JJB and Delaney should not be overworked, and played injured.

In short, I think we have the squad to compete, but it needs the coach to use it correctly.

Last year's stats. My cautious optimism is based on a belief that there are, and can be, no stats for that they are still capable of it, or something like it.




I like being optimistic. Being a pessimist is depressing.






Again, that was last season. I am basing this on hope (I don't think there is any actual evidence of the coach's selection plans for 2014) that having been eased into 1st grade last year he'll be in contention from the start this year. Time will tell.



Those stats surprise me a bit, he doesn't catch the eye so much. My eye, anyway. But I still think there's a very good player in there. I hope to really see it this year.



Not sorted, but I still think Sutcliffe might grow into the role, and they do seem to have given Hardaker some consideraton in the halves. Ward will also make a good pivot. My worry is that Sutcliffe and Ward might end up a bit similar in style (although I could equally see Sutcliffe turning into a centre). But I see options for that type of player. A bona fide scrum half is what I cna't see on the horizon. There aren't actually may of them around in the league full stop, and that is a problem.

We can still buy a big forward, becasue there are plenty out there, and you can even pick a good one up from the Championship (Hill and Walmsley are examples - where you could reasonably argue we've missed out, but they suggest there may be more coal in the seam).

I do apologise for that, only had the time to reply to Rhinoms whose message was first and was planning to get to yours when I had time to do a full and proper response,



I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account a massive factor of amount of games played.

LEULUAI
Games Played - 2013 (22) 2012 (29)
Metres (Average Per Game) - 1860 (84.5) 2005 (69.1)
Tackles - 416 (18.9) 449 (15.4)

BAILEY
Games Played - 2013 (14) 2012 (22)
Metres - 750 (53.6) 1034 (47)
Tackles - 352 (25.1) 425 (19.3)

DELANEY
Games Played - 2013 (1icon_cool.gif 2012 (29)
Metres - 1480 (82.2) 2201 (75.9)
Tackles - 527 (29.3) 769 (26.5)

CLARKSON
Games Played - 2013 (23) 2012 (23)
Metres - 1365 (59.3) 843 (36.7)
Tackles - 575 (25) 450 (19.6)

KIRKE
Games Played - 2013 (29) 2012 (21)
Metres - 1474 (50.9) 1033 (49.2)
Tackles - 583 (20.1) 294 (14)

JJB
Games Played - 2013 (22) 2012 (20)
Metres - 1867 (84.9) 1793 (89.6)
Tackles - 681 (30.9) 531 (26.6)

...................................

All six post a healthy increase in number of tackles made per game. 5 of the 6 made increases in metres made per game. JJB the only one to do less but still totals the highest average amongst the rest of the forwards after Peacock and he missed some of our easier games like Salford, London, Widnes, Wakey x 2 which would've probably seen him overhaul his 2012 average.

An almost entire clean sweep of improvement from 2012 by the whole forwards in the two big departments, so maybe criticism of them going downhill in 2013 has been incorrect.

(Haven't done Ablett as he'd ended up playing too many games at centre in both years).

You can look at other teams and say its good that they have a more even spread across their forwards. You can also say they're extremely lacking in their backs making metres for them too. We had Hall, Hardaker and Burrow all post 3,000+ metres in 2013. Between Warrington and Saints they didn't have a single back who made more than 2,600+ and it can be easily flipped to say they actually have an over reliance on their forwards.