No, and I have not said that either. I am stating this squad haven't won an important match without Sinfield, and therefore this "know how to win finals" is over optimistic. More relevant would be that Leeds have been incredibly lucky this year, and if that continues I would be more optimistic on that basis.

What we should all be saying is that we are poop, when we win a match, we are lucky and the coach has had help from someone else (a favourite of mine).....Cas have been excellent this year and deserve all the plaudits, Leeds have exceeded all expectations and may have a chance of getting to another GF. With ground improvements and a shot at OT, I'd rate this season as pretty good. The overall standard of SL has been poor in comparison to years gone by, but watching a game is still enjoyable for me. I don't need to see my team win to enjoy a game, I go to Halifax, Bradford, Dewsbury, Batley and Oldham during the season as well as Siddall and enjoy every game. Pity some folk.

Well in your mind Sinfield might've won those GF's single handledly but others will rightly recognised the key performances from others.

Most would also recognise the platform Sinfield created for those players to perform

I don't see how you get that impression from that post?
Those key performances whilst rightly lauded & recognised all came off the back of quality efforts across the 17 but what should never be over looked or underplayed was the Leadership & sheer presence of Sinfield & JP.
This current crop have no default setting of winning big games without either.

No but their GF experience doesn't just disappear out of window to be dismissed because Sinfield and Peacock have retired.

Wakey blew it late on which keeps Saints alive and puts us closer to securing 2nd as only Hull can catch us now. A Hull loss to Wigan tomorrow and doesn't matter what happens with our result.

Scott Grix really needs to learn when to boot a ball into row Z, you'd have thought he'd have learnt from the Ryan Hall try at Hudds.

Wakefield blew it all through the second half - accepting for ten mins they were down a man - but negatively kicking the ball off the field didn't challenge St Helens in those conditions. Barba didn't fancy those bombs in traffic.

Surprised wakey kicked that last penalty goal. Thought they would have been smarter to kick into the saints corner and pin them down that end of the field. The importance of gamemanagement which is being discussed on this thread . Sinfield, McGuire etc etc.

Printer - I don't think Leeds need to beat Cas necessarily, but they need to get close enough to believe they can beat them. Relying on a team who have collectively shown nothing in important games for almost two full seasons to come alive on GF day with some air of completely undeserved superiority just doesn't wash. If we did that I reckon our 'confidence' due to the past would be a wafer-thin veneer and would disappear very quickly under pressure.

What are people classifying as important games in the last two years?

Huddersfield CC
Widnes at home to avoid dropping into the bottom 4
Hull CC

All of which the team failed to deliver any kind of performance let alone a win

You may well be correct in that if they get to the GFthe team will suddenly morph into Leeds c2015 - I would suggest the chances are more against than for that happening.

You may not lose the experience but you cannot turn back father time and the likes of McGuire, Burrow, Ablett, JJB are not anywhere near the players they once were and the likes of Peacock and Kylie simply haven't been replaced with anything approaching their quality and that is before you talk about the Sinfield factor.

burrow and McGuire have been match winners in grand finals, but they never have controlled a game. the semi v hull was a game crying out for a controlling half. when hull got on top we should continually kicked deep into touch,stopped their momentum and got back into the game. we played into there hands with naive plays.both great players but not a controlling half. lilley likely is the only one who can. be really interesting to see how he goes tonight

That game last night told it all for me. Two teams, so important for the win for where they need to be. Yet the intensity level in the game never even reached a level as high as zero. Such a poor poor competition this year.

Sinfield would have successfully kicked the goal then recovered the short kick off waltzed leeds down field and kicked drop goal . Kicking the pen from 4 6 wasn't the big failing for Trinity last night. Finn hitting the post with it then the mess on the back of the Saints kick is what cost them

This is a very good point. The last thing you want to be doing when under pressure and stuck in your half is to put up a long, high kick. Chances are it is going to be caught on the full and it will be run back towards the half way line giving the opposing team another attacking set and the chance to pile on the pressure.
Yet in the Hull CC game that is all we tried apart from the odd running it on the last against a set defence. Like you say hopefully Lilley will bring some creativity to our last tackle plays because at the moment if a team gets on top of us we are struggling to cope.

Simple mistakes from supposed elite athletes - Grix is mistake just waiting to happen

My opinion exactly. It made me laugh to hear the commentators bigging him up. Whenever I've seen him he always seems to make a critical error undermining anything good he may have done in the rest of the game.
OTOH Ben Barba seems to me to be upsetting the applecart at Saints with Lomax the big loser & that's despite last night's lucky win.

I'm surprised that Barba looks so out of shape after having had 12 weeks of opportunity to get fit...

In the Hull CC game McGuire and Moon didnt run the game well, but last week against Hull I thought McGuire and Burrow did a good job of running the game and it wouldn't have been close if our defence was on show, so I wouldnt write that combo off just yet.

Also, for those who are questioning our halves ability to win big games, what evidence is there that Gale, Roberts or McShane know how to win big games?
Are those people calling Hull or even Wigan the favourites?

To be fair to Burrow he probably has the best long kicking game in the squad and putting 38 on them shows that the pivots did a good job throughout that game. Admittedly they weren't put under nearly as much pressure as they were in the semi final but that has just as much to do with how terrible our entire pack and Briscoe were as it does with the Hull team.

Honestly if Wigan sneak into the top 4 then I can see them lifting the trophy at Old Trafford. They have a knack for peaking at the right time and know how to grind out a win.

We clearly are nowhere near where we were 18 months ago when we went out of the cup and if we can include games that left us in the bottom 4 surely we can all the recent games that got us into the top 4. The wins vs Hull, Saints and Salford at the end of the regular season and now Wigan, Saints and Hull in the 8's. If we aren't winning those then we're struggling to make the top 8.

And I'm not saying they'll just morph into 2015 Leeds on GF night but in ANY sport you can't downplay the experience factor when it comes to finals. If it's a Wigan vs Cas final do you not think Wigan's experience could be a major factor? And yes we haven't won a GF without Sinfield but Castleford haven't won one at all or even appeared in one.

Apart from his questionable fitness, if I was a saints fan I would be more worried about his lack of interest and enthusiasm.
He did not seem interested in the foot race to prevent the wakey break out try. Nor did he have the appetite for the high ball, he obviously is a class player . All that counts for nothing if he does not want to be in the uk.

I personally think its the most open play off series ever. Cas will be favorites and rightly so but they will have huge pressure on them and they are yet to prove they can handle it. Of the other teams us, Hull Wigan or Saints ( i think sadly Wakey blew their chance last night although would be happy to be proved wrong) all have recent experience of big games and winning in them and the club cultures are all abouy success, i dont buy posters coming on here citing we cant do it without JP and Sinfield...probably the same ones saying they were done and finished in 2011/12



Fact is the SL standard is not great, we can beat anyone in a one off game, and this is a fantastic opportunity for an unexpected last hurrah we thought we'd had in 2015.

oh I agree with every word. in a one off game of course we can win. but I still think we would be a damn sight better side with a halfback in the sinfield, gale mode who knows when to play, when to kick, when to slow down and when to speed up. we don't have that