So are you saying I misread where posters said if McGuire had played we would have won? If we had a full side out we walk this etc. Nobody more adept at this than you - something you don't like being pointed out. We have lost 5 games by 4 points if we had won those we would be in challenging for the top 4 - that's one of yours!! Nothing like stating the bloody obvious!!

No that's not one of mine. I said we should've won 4 more games this year than what he have done (mainly the Easter ones)....once again your 'fantastic' reading skills strike!

Professional sport is a results driven business - happy to be accused of stating the bleeding obvious here - Leeds' results are in danger of leading them out of top flight if they can't turn them around. Just as nobody should really care about the margin of victory, there is no comfort and certainly no points to be had from a defeat no matter by how narrow a margin. A defeat is a defeat - no amount of excuses or even valid reasons will change that. Yet to win away from home in 2016, yet to win more than one in a row - if the season continues as it has to this point .... well it's over and being the butt of every other supporter's jokes awaits.

I didn't say Hudds were great, just that they were better than us.

You don't have to see much of Lilley and Hardaker taking place kicks to work out which is the natural kicker and which is not. Or indeed which is the natural play-maker. So I would say some Leeds fans may have to reconsider their opinions of the young half back.

Are you on medication

Reading your posts is enough to drive anyone to the pill bottle - fortunately I am made of stronger stuff

A number of reasons we lost that game, lack of commitment in defence wasn't one of them.



He isn't I agree. Also don't think it's right that Lilley is the HB that's having to switch which side he's defending on during the game. Burrow defends left, Sutcliffe right, with Lilley alternating during games much like McGuire did/does. Surely with his size and less experience he should be on the right next to the winger, Burrow likewise on the left side and Sutcliffe with more size and more experience than Lilley should be alternating sides 3rd man in.

You don't half speak a lot of perspicacity at times



Of the two (Lilley and Golding) I am now of the persuasion Lilley is the more likely to make a success of it. In addition to the attributes others have pointed out I love his fearlessness when going for the line - both close in and from distance. He has ducked and rode a few clouts in both cases (and if only the out of form Watkins would race up in support in the RC position, instead of the willing but hopeless RW we now have playing there, who knows what better outcomes we might get).

Fundamentally though the league position doesn't lie: as a team we are still incontrovertibly crap.

At that point I'd seen Burrow, Sutcliffe and Hardaker kick multiple goals for Leeds and I rated them in that order. I'm the first to admit I'd not seen Lilley outside of 1st grade and after the clutched attempt V North Queensland Cowboys he still had everything to prove at this level.

Indeed with regards play-making, didn't realise that had been under discussion, likewise which is the better defender or better poacher or safer under the bomb etc.

The reason I suspect McDermott shifted Lilley from right side early to left was that faced with Ta'ai he had already shown himself to be both clueless and useless for the first Huddersfield try. Defending Lilley with Burrow on the left is just plain crazy though.

It's been a while but the sooner we get back to defending second row, half back, centre, winger on either flank the sooner we bring consistency and understanding both with ball in hand and without and challenge players to develope in areas they are lacking. There is no hiding place in League anyway so why do we try to hide weaker defenders instead of challenging them to improve. If they don't improve to at least be able to work within the unit they should be stood down and sent away until they can. There are two aspects to the game and both can help to win you the game.

Will Bennett be selecting half-backs for England who can't stand up defensively and hiding them outside the centre? I very, very much doubt it.

But then Lilley moved back to the right again, and then left etc. Sometimes only for a set as happens most games. Can't be an easy thing to do even for an experienced guy like McGuire, asking Lilley to do it a dozen games into his career is asking too much IMO. Granted Sutcliffe isn't massively experienced himself in the grand schemes of things but he must still have about 60/70 more games than Lilley under his belt and as I mentioned before easily more size to stand a better chance with 2nd rows/centres attacking him as 3rd defender in.

Bennetts current 6 is Milford, hardly a rock in defence is he?

Milford and Hunt know what's expected of them defensively and who is in their unit inside and out, that doesn't typically change bar the interchange of a second-rower. Set defence is rarely if ever a solo pursuit, working together as a unit will allow for better cohesion and understanding, with and without the ball. McNamara defended his England halves using this formation V the Kiwis, cannot imagine Bennett won't continue. His options may be increased and England's chances, such as they are, improved if players (or coach - although I don't see this happening) didn't need to make these adjustments.

Printer - I disagree about the lack of effort. Some of Hudds' tries, as with virtually every game this season, would and could have been stopped by better defence.

An example is the first Hudds try, which was scored because Leeds as a unit didn't move off their line. That wasn't due to fatigue or anything else so early in the game, they just didn't move. With the PTB 15 yards out Hudds pass along the line and force their way over because the whole right side defence is stood flat on the line. This was in the 5th minute, not the 75th.

The "we're putting in the effort" argument is rubbish for me. Either you make an effort as a unit or not at all. This year its generally not at all.

What games are you watching? It's blindingly obvious that the effort was there on Friday night. How much defending did we do in that first half especially! EVERY try can be stopped!! The fact that we couldn't complete our sets and kept dropping the ball in their half cost us the game. Look at the handling errors. Watkins had 4 in the first half alone!

I think there is a difference between effort and desire - effort is simply the day job which is what Leeds are doing - desire is a whole different ball game it is what has separated Leeds from the rest during the golden generation. Its what separtes the Sinfields, Peacocks, Cameron Smith's (the real one) from the rest.

It going that extra mile making that extra effort - anyone who thinks this current side is exhibiting real desire cannot see what is going on in front of their eyes.

Agree entirely with this. But also think there is a sense of realisation with some players, that they are just not as good as they thought they were whilst playing with better players.

Not saying the defence was great but it had plenty of effort.

They were plenty of poor effort games that featured Sinfield and Peacock.....50-0 Wigan, a few hammerings at Saints, Hudds with only 12 men for 70 mins put 48 past us.

There were but I don't ever recall Leeds being bottom of the SL during Sinfield/Peacock's time? When it really mattered and the game at Huddersfield really mattered those players went the extra mile - I didn't see that desire to avoid defeat in any Leeds player on Friday.

I can't only a handful of defeats in the last 10 years where desire was an issue - the semi against Huddersfield, the play off defeats to Warrington and Catalans and the first CC final against Warrington.

I have criticised Leeds and their desire at various times this year, but i don't personally think it was missing on Friday. Some of the last ditch defence was excellent and with the amount of ball and territory we gave up in our half its a wonder we didn't get beaten more handily. Our main problems for me is we don't look organised or to have an actual game plan, a lot of which stems from lack of on field leadership.Our ruck is STILL an absolute mess and teams roll us down the field with ease.To me, it really doesn't look like these issues are being addressed on the training field and that is the biggest worry.We are obviously struggling at the minute but its not for lack of desire imo, that has been there in the last three against Hull, Saints and Huddersfield.

I went to my first Leeds game in 1982 and I don't think they have ever been at the bottom of the league after 13 games in that time. Closest we got to relegation (being in the bottom 3) was I think '86? When we were 4th from bottom on points difference at the end of the season, but I don't think we dropped into the bottom 3 all year before that.

Disagree on that specific example. Not having a go at Lilley, but he jumped into a tackle he had no need to get involved in. That meant Watkins was late peeling off and by the time the ball was played he was just about back onside and turned towards the attack. He didn't have chance to get off the line before Ta'i was already on him.

That was a breakdown in communication and structure, not desire or effort.

No I don't recall it either. However I'm not saying the effort has been their all year or every game, it clearly hasn't and that's why we're bottom at the moment, that doesn't their wasn't effort on Friday which they clearly was.