Yeah and if you want to run this (or any) sport like it's still 1986 then go ahead and see how far it gets you.

the other side of that coin is that it isnt that Leeds spent too much, its that they failed to bring enough in.

yeah if we ignore facts then we can pretend that the 15 years since its introduction having fewer different finals than the 15 years prior doesnt completely destroy your argument that the number of different finalists under the SC is evidence of the game becoming more equal.

That's not the point at all.
Our spending has barely increased in 17 years. You'd expect some increase considering inflation, increases in sponsorship, massively improved sky deals, better ran clubs etc. etc.

But nope, we are at square one.

Are you saying that the players & staff are on the same money now, as they were in 1999??
I am sure we can go to Companies House and clarify, but I would be ABSOLUTELY GOBSMACKED if that was true!

Players yes, absolutely.
It's a cap on salaries that has gone up 10% in 17 years and squad numbers haven't decreased. It's not hard to do the maths is it?

But that is how business works.. If you spend more than you bring in, you go bust.
Leeds UTD could have had another couple of successful years, and put money in the bank, as I would do with my business. They decided to 'speculate to accumulate'... and it didn't work. They spent money they didn't have. If they had the money, they wouldn't have gone bust. They were relying on future income to cover their costs.

Your argument isn't wrong, it is just, as you say, the flip-side of my same argument.

For my money, SuperTed has a good point.



It may not work, but we need to try something to get the figures, (which leads to money via advertising/TV revenue) up.

not even that really, the upping of the cap was more to do with a change in how NI contributions were calculated.

we have been drastically cutting the wage bill for a decade and a half. In 2001 Wigan were spending over £3m in wages. The NRL SC now is about £3m. the SL SC 15 years later is £1.8m. Had we kept up with inflation from what Wigan were spending in 2001 we would have an SC of 4.5m.

Our SC, had it kept up with inflation from when it was introduced, would now be at £2.7m we have gone backwards hugely. You cant keep cutting and not effect the quality of the product.

So what's the answer, then?
Do we aim for a similar thing to football, and use 'financial fair play', where we could up the SC, as long as the club could afford it with their own revenue?
That would allow, as per the original post, the successful clubs to have more money to play with........ So they could afford to buy better/more expensive players.
But does that then widen the gap between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'. It would be a shame (for MOST of us), to go back to the days of Wigan winning everything*, because they had more cash.
*(I prefer the recent times of Wigan whining about everything!)

Yep read what you want to read instead of what was written. Typical Smokey yawn-fest.

Hard to take you seriously when you so strongly argued we should've kept the previous league structure to allow teams at the bottom of SL to build slowly but then support a SC increase/removal that would see the top teams pull away from those bottom teams with their spending power.

Two completely contradictory views.

I've posted this before but I believe the answer is to reduce the number of clubs in SL again, probably to 10. The player pool wouldn't change but it would be distributed across less clubs which would immediately improve the quality and clubs would get a bigger share of the Sky money, therefore an increase in cash to spend.

A top 5 play-off system and a similar "middle 4" system with the bottom 2 SL clubs vs top 2 Championship clubs in a group format with the top 2 finishing clubs in SL the next season.

Less games, a shorter season where we can fit in proper International tours at the end of it while giving the players a decent rest afterwards.

The average SL salary is about £60k, that's ridiculous for an elite full-time sportsman. These fellas put their body on the line each week, some sacrificing a lot for a middle-management salary which will last 12-15 years if they are lucky.

There is no point increasing the salary cap. All it would do is inflate the wages of players. Whilst that might (and I stress the word might) slightly increase movement between top clubs that does nothing to improve the competition and also allows the bigger clubs to hold on to more players and have bigger squads, thereby widening the gap between the top and bottom clubs.

I think people are forgetting the complete and utter sh|thole RL was 15/20 years ago. It was in a terrible state at the dawn of SL. It had spent at least 15 years (probably longer) spending all its money on players and none (virtually) on club and sport infrastructure. We've been calling ourselves a professional sport all this time but realistically we're only starting to run our clubs on a professional basis now.
We have few clubs who can operate properly. Even Leeds, with an income double most of its rivals, is not awash with money. We have clubs in SL who can't afford full time management never mind other activities.

We are still in a prolonged period of recovery from the complete and utter mess the sport got itself in. It hasn't helped itself along the way with the RL affliction of selfishness and backward attitudes along with a centralisation of the country's media in London which really has negatively affected our coverage. But we are still in a recovery period, with lots of work in this respect left to do. We have clubs in SL who can't afford the current salary cap. We have clubs who are one unexpected cost away from disaster. We have clubs who don't perform basic functions of a pro sports club.
Why in gods name would we want to spend what little money we have on increasing the wages of the same players?
If it were to entice top NRL players then I could at least see the point in that. But NO SL club can afford an extra £1.5m.

I agree on the point about player transfers between clubs. We do miss out on providing a regular drip feed of news stories. Which is why I favoured the marquee rule. But the fact we've got that exemption allowing Koukash or anyone spending as much as they want on a player but still not seen a big player move, shows its not all about money and that plenty of clubs simply don't have the money.

But people are kidding themselves if they think it would be anything like transfer day in football. To get to that point you have to get people interested in RL FIRST.
Now, since we don't have the media on board, we have to do this through the grassroots. Getting people, both kids and adults, involved in the amateur game is the way to increasing our profile. Even in the heartlands participation is pathetic. So that's where we have to focus. Grow interest steadily, all over the country. But, due to the extremely limited funds in RL, I'd focus on massively growing participation in the heartlands and one or 2 specified areas of the country that all resources of the sport can be targeted at. We have to have big events (internationals etc) in London to get any media at all. But I'd focus on an area like Newcastle. Tie in with Thunder and the Magic Weekend, take an international there, provide lots of top players for grassroots events etc.

RL is off the life support machine it was on but it still needs plenty of bed-rest and physio before it can even walk without crutches yet.

I didn't use to agree with a reduction to 10 teams but I'm coming round to thinking it might be necessary now. I'd also like to see internationals mid-season.
I agree on players wages, I think they should, ideally, be paid a lot more. But we've got to sort our clubs and sport out first, or they'll be paid even less in the future.

Something needs to be done - currently we have a shrinking sport that is struggling to finance itself. Even Leeds is a tiny business in revenue terms and it is one of the biggest clubs.

The RFL is not fit for purpose and needs more dynamic management and a clear vision for the sport - I can't see SKY paying the same monies if the current trends continue.

The key is a greater pyramid and greater opportunities to make a full time career in the sport - this has to start from the grass roots. Increase participation perhaps through nines or touch to begin with?

Reduce SL to 10 teams return to franchising and make the championship the Queensland Cup/NSW feeder to the elite level. Clubs are funding 25 players make sure they are playing every week when they are not injured/rested

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That's pretty much what I'd do too.

IMHO the lack of player movement between the ‘big clubs’ is solely down to the Salary Cap. There just isn’t the budget to shell out on ‘big money’ players while managing to retain your existing ‘big money’ players.

By effectively keeping a static SC has painted RL into a corner with no real way out. As HIM suggests, upping the cap at this point will simply increase players wages.

A massive hike in the SL is also unrealistic as a majority of SL clubs will would struggle to meet the new wage bill meaning that the top earing clubs with have an even bigger monopoly on the best players. The knock-on effect being that there would be less reliance on the big clubs produce their own players as they would basically be able to pick and choose any players from the lower earning clubs, again widening the gap between these clubs.

The RFL have grossly mismanaged the SC limit and should have had a system that is based on the previous year’s league positions; the clubs at the bottom of the league being able to spend more than those at the top.

Unfortunately we are now way too far down the track for any major overhaul of the SC to take place. Every club has now tailored its finances and revenue streams to suit the current SC which means any changes the RFL make will have to be progressive and implemented over several years. But as the RFL can’t seem to see beyond next Thursday it’s doubtful anything will change real soon.

you could have just admitted you were wrong. 'Insult-quickly change the subject' isnt tricking anyone.

I dont think a removal of the SC would see the top teams pull away from all those at the bottom. So no contradiction.

In fact one thing the SC does brilliantly is preserves the status quo, it keeps the top clubs at the top and keeps the lower ones lower.

There is nothing to say that an SC or even any financial limits are the restrictions that are needed. We can have other restrictions on squad make up.

how many players that the bigger clubs want to keep are leaving for the lesser clubs now? its not a significant figure.

Leeds own a huge asset in the middle of headingley and makenearly a million pounds profit without really trying.
Leeds could, pretty easily. Les Catalans arent far away from us. Koukash wanted to do that, he could afford it and he gets nothing but vitriol and criticism. Simon Moran has been happy to invest when necessary and has made hundreds of millions personally and billions for his business selling big names.

give it time. In another example of RFL brilliance the marquee allowance was implemented after the big names in aus had all moved last year.

And lets look again at the marquee allowance. Kallum Watkins costs leeds £100k on the cap. He would cost Salford £175k. Thats a pretty substantial part of the cap anyway. Lets not pretend it has been put in place with the expectation most clubs will use it to bring in a big name. Its a tool to keep the big players where they are.

You say here that we need to get people interested in RL first, then list a lot of things that arent really going to interest people.

You know what wil get more kids and adults playing all over the country better than anything the RFL can do? More big name players, more big games, more media interest, more heroes.

this is similar to what i thought. But i dont think we have the time for such a slow build. We have been left behind by the NRL and by RU and there is a point where we reach a 'critical mass' and we have simply lost The best players go elsewhere, the value of the product falls, the money coming in falls so more of the best players go, so the value of the product falls and less money comes in and we are stuck in a vicious cycle.

We need a paradigm shift, a seachange in outlook and presentation. We cannot continue to be seen as the game where the best players leave and play RU or the NRL, we cannot be continue to be seen as the second best league in our sport and the second best rugby in our country. If we want the big TV money, the big sponsorship money to pay these big players not only do we need to allow our owners to invest, we need to be the be the best rugby league of any code in the world.

simple answer. Join the NRL as another conference and merge the competitions.

Agree Simon Moran has plenty of coin and Catalans will and do shell out very very generously to our antipodean cousins. Some other SL club owners may not have quite As many real assets As their public appearance would suggest or be willing to spend their own money

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35916596[uJosh Charnley to Rugby Union[/u[/url

That's where they go when they aren't good enough for the NRL.

Salary Cap [iausterity[/i by plenty!

SL dying a slow death.

I stick by what I said on another thread...

[iThe salary cap in its current guise is a policy of enforced austerity. It isn't working in the economy as a whole and it certainly isn't working in SL. It's killing the game just like it's killing the economy. The only one's benefiting are those few at the top.

Leeds can thank the salary cap for all that silverware they've won during the past decade more than any other reason. They've benefited more than any other SL club from austerity. There's no player transfer market between the top clubs (Peacock to Leeds and Fielden to Wigan being the most recent transactions in 2005/06), hence why Leeds have been able to hang on to all their best players for so long during the past decade paying them sod all.[/i

Yeah i'm sure the likes of McGuire,Sinfield,Peacock,Hall,Watkins etc... are/ have been on sod all for the last decade or more.

[url=http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/leeds-rhinos/poll-cap-just-doesn-t-fit-insists-rhinos-sinfield-1-6970265[uDid Kevin Sinfield tell you to say that?[/u[/url

[url=http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/leeds-rhinos/exclusive-super-league-s-quality-could-take-nosedive-if-salary-cap-restrictions-are-not-eased-believes-peacock-1-3442534[uOr, how about Jamie Peacock? Did he tell you to say that?[/u[/url

[url=http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/leeds-rhinos/danny-mcguire-paymasters-must-step-in-to-halt-talent-drain-1-5645245[uDanny McGuire perhaps? Did he tell you to say that?[/u[/url