Fozzard maybe?

To put this debate in perspective, consider the following:

1) If the Warriors hadn't come round apparently offering way more than any SL club would offer an untried teenager, this discussion would not be taking place.

2) Before this season, no NRL club had come to SL deliberatly scouting untried players.

Given the second point, how the heck is it Leeds' fault if Baldwinson joins the Warriors? If you don't answer that, you're missing the point entirely.

Unfortunately, you are missing the point here. It's been pointed out numerous times.

1) it's about the future and what the club would need to change going forward to ensure it doesn't happen again. Ask questions how it happened, and put controls in place so whether NRL or not it is not repeated. The NRL have made no secret at all over last couple of years of going for British players. A number of unproven players already over there.

2) These two were apparently not your average academy squad filler. A lot of time and money had gone into their development, and they were the planned future. It wasn't on a whim, it was planned. How did we manage to have two players regarded this highly to be so close to end of contract. It's quite obvious someone would go to lengths to get them.

That's the point he. It is not relating to "oh we have lost another academy player", these two were regarded higher than that.

I asked previously how many England academy captains have not made it. It's hard to find info, but Baldwinson was 2013, Bateman 2012, Singleton 2011, Adam Milner 2010. I can't find further back. If you become country's captain at that level it's normally a given you are going to be top regular.

And when has it ever occurred that junior captains have been poached by the NRL?

We don't know that he wasn't offered a contract early on but chose to sit on it. He might have wanted to wait until he got some promised first team games under his belt before signing.

Also, do not underestimate the role that player agents play in this. It could all just be a big bluff.

But a point has also been made numerous times that, if it's about bigger money, the sunshine Aussie lifestyle and the chance of playing in the NRL, no changes that a SL club can afford are likely to prevent kids from going.
Granted, the commitment implied in a contract and/or game time might mitigate slightly but it ain't going to trump a decent offer from an NRL club.

He wasn't offered a deal early on none of them were which is precisely the point whether you believe that or not is up to you i personally have no reason to disbelieve it.
The bigger offer from the NRL etc i have no problem with whatsoever but i think we should/could have signed both up earlier and that includes the SC restraints etc.

Considering that next deal is going to be highly dependent on their playing standard (lots more if they're playing first team) should they be offered a deal at that point anyway? It's either going to be a low level academy contract that the player, if he's got any belief, will turn down because he hopes to crack the first team. Or it's going to be a first team contract, perhaps wasting our salary cap on a player who might not be first team material.

Richie- As i understand it the Contracts have various clauses in them anyway to allow for 1st team debut etc etc.
Listening to Brian Mc when we announced Sutcliffes deal we'd agreed an Acadamy package with him but it became a 1st deal after his debut and performances.
If we'd offered them deals and they'd declined then fair enough my point is and always has been we wasted time waiting to get any offer in at all when they were standing out as much as others especially Baldwinson.

I heard leeds messed around with baldwinson and contract negociations and then offered him peanuts, I don't think he is getting much at the warriors though !

Be reasonable...the club had to deal with the priority negotiations over Ian Kirke's contract let's not forget

....and Joe Vickery's

NZ Warriors have confirmed the signings of Baldwinson and Tonks.

Meh.

Good luck to them, it's the opportunity of a lifetime.

Chance for the lads coming up behind them to step up.

Yup it's that easy. You plan for 3 years and develop them ready, but its ok because we just change to someone else now that we didn't plan for.

What it really means, is that Leeds will now be forced down the route of buying, and recruiting externally. I am sure they would rather have still been on their planned path.

So Baldwinson and Tonks are the only players Leeds planned for the first team? Seems pretty careless to me if so.

What exactly is this "messing them about" that a few have spoke of?

Why wasn't Sutcliffe or Minns messed about. Or in years gone past recently the likes of Ward, Clarkson, McShane, BJB, Watkins, Hall not messed about with when at that age? A long list of academy players have come through in GH's time at the club, so he must do something right yet apparently he's just randomly treated these 2 so different that they felt "messed about".

A possible and logical theory taking into account the clubs record in academy players during GH's spell and also how several posters on here have gone on about how these 2 lads where earmarked as special could be that GH dealt with them the same he does with other academy prospects. These 2, on hearing how promising they were maybe thought the club should make an extra effort towards them. Certainly they're a few posters who thought the club should make an extra effort when it came to these two individual cases......you have to wonder if the players thought likewise.

What exactly is this "messing them about" that a few have spoke of?

Why wasn't Sutcliffe or Minns messed about. Or in years gone past recently the likes of Ward, Clarkson, McShane, BJB, Watkins, Hall not messed about with when at that age? A long list of academy players have come through in GH's time at the club, so he must do something right yet apparently he's just randomly treated these 2 so different that they felt "messed about".

A possible and logical theory taking into account the clubs record in academy players during GH's spell and also how several posters on here have gone on about how these 2 lads where earmarked as special could be that GH dealt with them the same he does with other academy prospects. These 2, on hearing how promising they were maybe thought the club should make an extra effort towards them. Certainly they're a few posters who thought the club should make an extra effort when it came to these two individual cases......you have to wonder if the players thought likewise.

Really?

How many forwards have leeds had in the first team who have come from the academy in last 10 years? Smokey told us earlier on this thread that producing two players for first team from the academy every other year is brilliant going. Certain posters on here keep telling us that academy players becoming stars are one in a generation.

But here Wheels tells us that it doesn't matter if you had a strategy and had put the development in these particular players, you just change it just like that. It's taken three years with these, and before we get to the next three we will have lost Peacock, Kylie, Moore, Kirke, JJB, and no doubt Delaney will be back In NRL. Yet despite posters continually stating you can not produce that many academy players for first team, you believe we can suddenly magic 5or 6.

Not negative all the time. It it sure feels like it but I guess just the majority of the time!



But your opinion is based on hearsay, which could well be wrong.



Of course the junior coaching staff can have their opinions influenced by emotion and getting too close to parents and it is not reasonable for them to be biased in favour of youngsters who they have developed.



You quote me as saying "they can do no wrong" This is incorrect I have never suggested this. Yes I do point out "the club's recent success" because it is a valid argument against your constant stream of critical postings against our Champion coach, management and senior players



Maybe for once your negatives views will be justified but both these two players will have to first prove to be better than the ones the club chooses to contract.

"We were keen to retain Jordan Baldwinson and made him an offer that was above his current position within our structure. However, we understand the attraction for both players to live and play in the Southern hemisphere and I hope it works out for them and they continue to develop their natural talent. Our focus remains on developing players like Alex Foster, Elliot Minchella and Liam Sutcliffe at the heart of our club for many years to come," added McDermott.

good luck to them. however i really really hope the leeds staff can alleviate all the worry about our fast ageing pack with some positive news.......

JC-The lack of an offer earlier in the year is not HEARSAY it's not terrace whispers nor is it guessing or whatever you think it may be it never happened.
Also again i comment on each individual situation ,performance ,selection etc etc and that opinion is at THAT particular time what we did yesterday last week or over the last decade doesn't automatically mean we'll always get it 100% right nor does it mean that every opinion is wrong because of what happened in the past.
As for coaches showing emotion within the Acadamy this set up has been outstanding for years and always 100% professional in their appraoch so to suggest in this case their opinions are emotion driven makes no sense at all.

I think we all soon realized that these two players would take up the offer from the NZ Warriors and good luck to them in their pursuit of a career in the NRL, I hope that they both make the grade over there and have successful careers over there

The NZ Warriors are clearly breaking new ground here in recruiting promising academy players from overseas, so this could be an isolated incident?

My only concerns regarding NRL clubs making these types of signings is that if it costs so little to entice the cream of our SL clubs academies over there, is that if all the other NRL clubs decide to also jump on the band wagon and take the "you can't lose here whether they make it or not" attitude because it doesn't cost anymore than what they would get paid back in SL, then IMO our game could be in serious trouble

As our SL clubs are no longer going to be able to bring in either the top end imports like Trent Barrett due to the increased salary cap down under, we are also going to struggle in enticing the middle range players that used to come over here merely due to lack their of game time back home any more as they also get paid plenty for being a squad player whilst not playing in the first grade each week

I believe that we need to put even more resources into finding the best junior players available to fill our future first team sides and to give them a clear pathway to first footy rather than having experienced squad filler players that restrict it

I have spoken to Bob Pickles about this current situation and he said that if fans realized how much time and effort went into first scouting and enticing players to our club and then developing them into prospective first team players only to lose them like we just have and for no recompense either is financial suicide for all of our clubs should it continue

Was there a reason for not quoting his statement about taking years to nurture and develop these players?

He certainly wasn't coming across with a , meh.

TBB-But surely Bob Pickles is going on hear say and is far too emotionally involved to have a constructive opinion?
Afterall players like Kirke have been the cornerstone of all our GF wins and we can build our future around him ,Moore and Kylie for the next decade and lets not forget JP can play till he's 58!

A lot of knee jerking going on on this thread because a couple of young lads have decided that they would like to chance their arm in the NRL.I really dont think its anything to worry about.Yes, i would have liked to have seen Baldwinson stay and see if he could make it at the club as the limited time i have seen him he has shown potential.Yet that is still all it is, and he still has it all to prove.

So far this year we have seen Sutcliffe show he is going to be a big player for the team for years to come and sign a new deal.Singleton has already nailed down his place in the squad as of course has Ward.Minns and Foster shown brief glimpses of potential and signed new deals also.Minchella may follow in due course as Mac said in his comment.A great return for youth progression IMO.Anyway,good luck to the lads hope they make a good fist of it.