He joined the club as a halfback and didn't make it in that area. He's making a good fist of being an attacking hooker, but his defence (although improved) still leaves a fair bit to be desired.

With regard to hooker being a second halfback, Buderus doesn't play like that, nor does Roby, who are the best two hookers in SL. It's team dependant, and Leeds already play 1, 6, 7 and 13 as ball players.

Shallow much?

I'd prefer to see a well knitted team play together, for eachother and try their hardest to beat the opposition. Perhaps I'm just a bit too ideolistic



I don't think Buderus' impact upon the team sometimes isn't rated enough, that said, I don't see anything much more than the quality Diskin provided when with us. To compare Diskin at Bradford and Buderus now is ridiculous. I think the combination of Buderus and McShane is better than Buderus and Diskin because they have a contrasting game style which complements eachother well.

I don't think we've seen particularly good value for money with Buderus should he be on a huge wage, however nobody does know what wage he is on so we can't really comment.

True he did but Leeds always identified him as a Hooker when playing him in the Academy sides, That doesn't make a player 'FAILED' in that position it means the club feel the players potential is better suited in another position.
Defence still leaves a fair bit to be desired

He's only missed six in Super League this Season:

Paul McShane: Tackles 152 (6 Missed)
Danny Buderus: Tackles 319 (21 Missed)
Matt Diskin: Tackles 374 (18 Missed)

Does that make Matt Diskin the best defensive Hooker we had at Leeds

Agree completely re not failed because club identified his best position

McShane is new teams haven't yet worked how to nullify him, he comes on as an impact player when the forwards are less fresh. The proof of the pudding will come over the next two years - oh and he has worked with an ex Aussie hooker for the last three seasons

Are you seriously suggesting Diskin's passing from the floor is as good as Buderus? not even you believe that.

We will never agree - when I go to a game I want to be entertained, I want to see elite players doing elite things - if the team wins great. My frustration this year is not about winning it is the abject quality of the play.

I used to really enjoy watching Iestyn because he could stuff that would simply defy belief - I would rather the Saints semi in 2007 loss than a win a low quality game like some of the wins this season any day

Agree regarding the buderus vs diskin debate.


However I do to games to be entertained and see special players do special things, but also a team without superstars can be great to watch when they click.

I would rather win a crap semi final desplay rather than lose a great classic semi final

That's what makes the value argument particularly laughable for me. And I guess whether he has lived up to expectations depends on what your expectations were really. If you believe he walked on water when he played in the NRL then you'll probably be disappointed. I'll just content myself that I enjoy watching Buderus play week in week out.

Bored of this now.

True but it won't stop till buderus leaves.

Even then it will probably a buderus vs diskin debate over who had the most influence on mcshane

I don't have a problem with Buderus at all - he is a damn good hooker. I DO have a problem with people downplaying Diskin's 10-year role at the club as though he was some kind of Kirke-standard hooker.

I also have a problem with people who say they like to watch star players doing flashy stuff and less about winning. Had that for my first 20 years watching Leeds - no thanks.

It is not about flashy stuff - it about quality on the field for me - fans will only go and watch a dour winning side for so long - even the CEO realised that - fans want to be entertained.

I have seen you repeat this twice now. Where are these posts you talk of? Is anyone downplaying Diskins 10 year role? where?

I think people looking at things a little more with an open mind, rather than blinkered specs, can see that Diskin had reached his end life, and really shouldn't have even had the opportunties he had last season. Why can some not differentiate between that and what he did prior?

I don't see anybody putting down Diskins efforts/performances previous to last season, which at times were superb. Just the fact that it was clear he was finished as a top class hooker. And more to the point realizing that we had a player also in the hooking role who was substantially better than he was.

Interesting that Diskin stated he was leaving because he wanted to regain the England number 9 role. Of course it was laughable at the time and quite clear it was Leeds clearing out, but where is he in the pecking order now? He's further down the ladder now than he was when playing back up at Leeds.

Somebody on this thread has clearly stated that Diskin was at best average after his injury in 2004. That's rubbish. It's also very clearly implied by a number of posters that we would definitely won the GF in 2009 with Buderus at hooker rather than Diskin.

So when would YOU have ditched Diskin? I don't have a problem at all with Buderus being the one chosen to continue with after the failed Diskin/Buderus rotation we had in 2009.

FYI, according to today's RLW, Buderus will be leaving Leeds for a return to Newcastle next season. If that happens and assuming we win sweet FA this year, Buderus can be added to a whole host of big name players that were fun to watch but in the scheme of things where the object IS to win things were abject failures.

I'm not sure why you'd think the above is somehow blinkered. I'm not sad Diskin has left, and wish him well at the Bulls.

Buderus... next question.

Whoever said he was average since 2004 is been silly. But we would have won the GF in 2009 with Buderus at hooker, he was clearly the better of the two hookers that year before his injury, just never got the chance to prove it. So whoever put that I agree with them.



I would have ditched Diskin at the end of 2009, but I think his long term contract that was previously granted to him covered 2010 so the club couldn't do that. But I certainly wouldn't have messed around last season giving him as much game time as he got.



What I find strange is that certain posters on this board want us to continue with the class of 2004-2009 with the acceptance of not winning anything, because we have already had it so good. Yet Buderus get's classed as a failure because of the club not winning things.

. Just because the club might not win anything whilst he is at the hooking helm doesn't mean he is a failure if that transpires. Rugby League is a team game, and never from my memory can I remember teams winning championships because of one player, lucky draws to get to a CC final maybe but not championships.

Buderus legacy will probably go down as the development of two top class hookers at the club he will leave behind. And if they go on to be part of a successfull side then that will do for me, Buderus will have done his job.



I wasn't suggesting you were been blinkered. I said some posters.

Gawd, my tits have never been so bored!

We're halfway through a challenging season, and the numpties are still chelping on about the perceived abilities and influences of Diskin v Buderus.

Diskin, at this stage of his career has found his level at the Bulls. It's several grades lower than in his pomp of 7 years ago, but such is life. Similarly, Buderus is also playing within his comfort zone with us, and I for one reckon the Leeds managment called it right when players were allowed to leave last season.

You know what I'm going to write here don't you?

What an excellent post. Diskin was a great player for Leeds and has since moved on. Lots of people are now complaining about the contribution of a certain Senior centre currently playing. His previous exploits in a Rhinos shirt have been magnificent to watch, this season leaves a lot to be desired. It seems that people can distinguish between Senior's previous exploits and the most recent few seasons decline but are having problems making the same connection regarding Diskin. Diskin was a great servant and player for Leeds but the time had come to move on. I wish him all the luck in the world and hope he does well. I also think that it is time for Senior to move on/retire, providing with have adequate cover. Which, with all the injuries we keep getting isn't possible for the time-being. So for now I hope he is solid in defence and makes no stupid mistakes and occasionally flashes of previous glories. Will always be one of my favourite players.

I think I referred to Diskin post 2004 earlier. My opinion is that in 2004 he was playing very well (our key man that year in many respects). After the injury I think we didn't see the same player again. He wasn't a bad hooker, but he wasn't nearly as influential as he was in 2004. I could see that the brain was still willing, but his body had lost that little bit extra that took him to another level.

I would rather have the Diskin of 2004 (especially if he'd continued on his improvement trajectory) over the Buderus of 2009. I think that Diskin in 2007 was probably the best he's been since his injury, but not to the level of 2004. I think him being spelled did nothing for his own performances or those of the team

Theories about 2009 are just that. If this then that. no one will know. This is sport. What we do know is that Diskin was our sole hooker (the role he performed best in) for the latter half of that season, and we were successful. Our lack of success last season was IMO down to many other factors than whether we had Diskin or Buderus or both playing.

I think I would probably agree with all of that. And you can now see the pattern as to why he is no longer at Leeds. Not because he wasn't a superb asset to this club through his time, but because his levels of performance were going backwards and backwards, to a point where we had better options.

To suggest Diskin's role in winning the 2009 GF was so crucial that it would not have been possible for Buderus to fill the same role is laughable.

Great players cannot win things single handed, by your logic you should never have top players in your side unless you are certain of winning something - otherwise they are abject failures!!

By your logic the likes of Brad Godden and Marc Glanville were abject failures because Leeds never won a GF when they were here?

People forget or ignore that DB was at Leeds for a significant part of 2009 GF winning season. Had we have picked up the GF trophy last year, would we have said that Peacock hadn't had enough part in proceedings?

Buderus was part of the squad, and him sharing the role with Diskin probably allowed Diskin to be more fresh for the business end of the season, and he certainly took full advantage, and raised his game

While it's impossible to know it's not unreasonable to reach that conclusion.

People should take note of Kevin Sinfield's speeches at the Grand Final trophy presentations. The playing squad, the coaching team, the administrators and the fans win a Championship not any one individual.

My thoughts entirely.

I have supported Leeds for over 50 years and had I only been pleased when we won silverware I would had a most unhappy time - as indeed would supporters from every other team over the years as purple patches never last for ever.

Its the game I love first and foremost. To have witnessed the spectacle of so many great players, from different clubs, parading their skills has given me the most pleasure and excitment - win or lose. It is the brilliant individual skills of players that I recall more than our captain of the day holding up a trophy.

Of course its great to win but sport is about much more than that. Rugby League is in the entertainments business and I could never except boring rugby as a price for winning trophies.

Its all about the quality of the play and skill of the players and why we should always allow our creative players the freedom to make mistakes. I recall occassions when a player like John Holmes for instance had made a mistake with a pass or kick, but was aplauded by a knowledgable section of the crowd who had realised that he was trying to achieve something special.

I don't have problems with 'special' players - just that I've seen far too many do flash things for Leeds whilst the team's won nothing. McGuire I'd class as a special player that's done both. I watch Leeds to see them win - its sport not dancing, and I'd take an ugly year and GF win like 2009 over any 'pretty rugby no win' season any day of the week. Each to their own.