Those using the excuse of 'tossing it off' or 'playing the current system' also need to take into account that other teams (certainly Wigan, Wire and Hudds) we're also 'playing the system' this year, hence Cas finishing the season so high.

With recent performances, I'd expect all three of those teams to be able to perform well consistently more often than Leeds.

One other worry is that the 'bully boy' tactics worked so well against us. Wigan set the blueprint on that front - even Leigh troubled us using the same tactics.

I probably wouldn't use Hudds as an example of a team playing the system.

Also Warrington I don't believe played the system this year I just think they honestly struggled early doors to life without Briers, Morley, Hodgson.

I'm not ignoring those losses. The Saints one, well bit of a tricky one to be overally critical on as we went with 12 men for 60 mins and they only just scraped past us. Wigan, we lost comfortably away to them, they lost comfortably away to us. I know we weren't good enough against Catalans but that's one playoff game it happens, it happened to the 2006 team, I thought the talk was about how we'd get on as a whole for a league season next year......I'm not ignoring losses, yet some are ignoring the wins we managed to pick up this year too.

We lost twice to a very weakened Saints side, Wigan beat us twice - you appear to have overlooked the magic weekend? The talk is can this side still cut - based on the second half of 2014 it is doubtful. I cannot see any tangible evidence that this side can still challenge the top sides in the league.

So you basing it on the 2nd half of the season.....yet want to include the losses to Saints and Wigan from the first half of the season? Which is it?

Not overlooking any loss, I've quite happily talked about the defeats we've suffered this year AS WELL as the wins we've had......it's the people who think we won't make top 4 next year that have only mentioned losses whilst ignoring the wins.

Why is that? Why are people ignoring the fact that we've also been capable of beating every team in 2014 barring Hudds (which we were a drop-goal against the post away from beating)? My view isn't overlooking/ignoring anything, it's actually basing it on the full season.....and I admit there is a good chunk of bad in there so I can understand why some think we'll be outside the top 4 next year......but perhaps some others should try practise what they preach and not ignore games (namely any game we didn't lose) when coming to their conclusions.

The point of mentioning the Magic game is that it was week 13 so half way and it was when things started to go down hill - Wigan's depleted team simply beat the crap and the confidence out of them. They were never the same team again after that.

The point about the second half of the season is that is the most up to date evidence we have of how the team is going. Since the Magic weekend they had wins against: Catalans (very lucky), Hull, Widnes, Hull KR and Salford hardly confidence boosting stuff. Catalans apart they didn't beat a top side since the Magic weekend.

The CC is an excuse in my opinion, the beat Saints late April so between May and August they played 1 game in the CC which was against a non SL side. So as a distraction it should not have been even a consideration for an elite professional player.

We still have the conundrum of why they played so badly when it really mattered against the Catalans? 2006 the team was sick of Smith and didn't want to play for him. Early 2007 was equally bad it was only after Smith announced his departure that things started to improve.

I am struggling to see why many on here think the top 4 is a mere formality - it is difficult to argue that the team is ageing and in decline other teams have strengthened and - in some cases - have better youth structures in place.

The crux of the matter for me is this year (and probably a couple of seasons before that) we've been more consistently average/poor than we have been consistently good. Yes they've definitely been playing the system to an extent, but our best is no longer miles ahead of the others, and naturally as our roster has aged, it's harder for them to put a string of top performances together.

Next year we've only brought in Cuthbo (who should be decent), and the squad is year older - so to me it's clear we're going backwards. If we'd blooded lots of youngsters who were ready to go full tilt next year, it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but in reality there's only really Sutcliffe who's been afforded anything like regular minutes.

Here's the thing, though. It's the order in which those wins and losses occurred that bothers me more than the overall number of wins and losses (although that wasn't too awesome, given that we finished sixth). The mantra has always been (because it's usually been true) that this great team always comes good when it counts. It's pretty hard to reconcile "coming good when it counts" with the feeble form we showed at the end of last season. We actually "came good" in February, March and April this year.

People talk about the Bradford and London games but the ones that sit with me are Saints away and at home. When we played them away we were in good form and playing a weakened team. But their youth and enthusiasm did our very poor tactics of playing up the middle. That seemed to be the end of our flowing rugby. Then the game at home worked out well for McD. Again, they were there for the taking. But Moon's sending off gave McD a 're out of jail free car's. We played e game with 14 men which was diabolical - and because the coach 'didn't think feel the need' to play 2 of our bench.

I can imagine our leaders getting the team up for the big games, but tactically our coach is well off. When teams work out our game plan, he can't seem to react.

A good coach looks at his team and plays the best way for the personnel. Looking at our team it's the backline that is strongest but he continued to try and win a forward battle we struggled to do.

The biggest signing for me this off season won't be on the playing side, but an assistant who can bring attacking structure and challenge Brian.

We also played against very weakened sides against Wigan at Magic, and against Warrington at their place. Lost them both.

The team fell short on a number of occasions. Do you imagine that when GH and Brian review the season that fact won't be at the forefront of their minds? It's only natural that many fans consider matters in identical fashion.

Part of the 'problem' IMO is what seems an ever increasing over reliance on the 'grinding tactics'

These can work in poor conditions and have served us well on damp October nights in Manchester but this season especially we seem to have relied on this tactic more and more in all conditions.

The problem with the 'grind' is that it doesn't blow teams away, unless the grind wears down and tires the other team out so that you can then up the gears and get the rewards by scoring the points later on.

This season we haven't been capable of going up the gears often enough and the problem with that is the tactics keep the game tight and therefore the other team is kept in the game longer therefore fatigue doesn't come into it as much as if the game is kept close and tight the opposition retains their enthusiasm and confidence etc for longer.

There have been so many games this year that we've lost towards the end where we've only started throwing stuff at the opposition when going behind late on and haven't managed to real them in as by then the opposition have 'grown a 3rd leg' through keeping in the wrestle with us and then taking the lead late on and we then try and hit them with our 'off the cuff' style.

We have an awesome looking back line on paper but don't seem to have either the tactics or half backs to be able to utilise them to their maximum potential which is very frustrating to watch.

I would agree with a lot of the above. The away match at Saints was an example of a problem which was also present in a few games we won. Specifically, we struggled to break down pretty much any decent defence for most of the season (the few exceptions coming early on). There were a few times when we were dominant for long periods, but never really put the game to bed. In a few cases (Wire at home also stands out) we got through on some very tough defence, but I felt that we'd had the field position to put the game to bed and not done enough with the ball.

If anything, watching other teams on Sky, that tendency for both teams in most matches to have spells in ascendancy has seemed more pronounced than ever this year, and it's been the teams who are best able to put points on the board who come out on top. We didn't score enough points when we had our good spells last year. Our defence was very good, which was great to see. We need to hang onto that and put some more emphasis on attack. Not because it's pretty and adds entertainment, but because we'd win more matches.

That game in particular sticks in my mind. We made some very easy yards up the field, and countless times put ourselves in good attacking positions. But we could just not find a way through. Saints defence in their own 20 was good, but we just kept going and going with the same plays that werent working. A lack of plan b....a phrase i've uttered more than once from the terraces this year.

We cant utilize a sub bench properly let alone having more than 1 game plan up our sleeve.

Those consecutive games we lost last year and some quite late on concerned me .It went from one to another and it got to the stage where I was expecting a defeat

An old saying, but if you want to go sideways with the ball in rugby league you first have to go forward.

By putting teams on the back foot with good drives and quick play the ball, you earn the right to exploit a retreating defence by getting your backs into space.

Leeds don't have a single forward who can dominate collision with the ball in hand and generate good ruck speed. Not one. The starting props look like they need a winch to get them off the floor every time they are tackled, and the bench options are powderpuff runners who get dominated in the tackle way too easily.

That's why to an extent it doesn't really matter who Leeds have at dummy half or at half-back, as they are getting zero space to work in and constantly coming up against set defensive lines. Before Leeds can unleash that backline and not have to rely on it creating chances for itself (as it did in the first half of the season pretty well), they need to have some forwards who can create space and momentum for it to work with.

Yet in the first half against Cas (and quite a lot of the second half) in the cup final everything was simple for us based on quick PTB's and dominant collisions by the forwards. If Clarke had been playing for us that day we would have destroyed Cas completely by half time. We did pretty well in the semi against Warrington as well.

I also know very well that general thinking is that you have to go forward before you can go wide, I like to think of it more of a rule that if you do make the half break up the middle and get a quick PTB then you MUST go wide.
But, if you don't stretch a defence you allow it to condense and then you will never win up the middle if the defence can safely stack the midfield and put 3-4 guys into the tackle without worrying about covering the wide areas. There has to be a tangible threat out wide that needs to be covered, so you have to attack with width sometimes - even if you are not winning the battle up-front, or use a kicking game that forces defenders to stay in wide areas.
My view is that this Leeds team does not surprise anypne when they go wide. With the pace we have we should look to attack wide 2/3 tackle from in or around our 20, and do something that I don't see anyone doing much these days, double up the centres. Get Moon and Watkins on the same side of the pitch linking well inside our 40 early in the tackle count, add Hardaker to that and watch the trouble it would cause the defence.

One thing Leeds used to do really well was attack from deep i.e. their own thirty with quick short paces out wide to the likes of Senior. We have potentially a really good backline for that type of attack but we don't seem to possess the same level of speed and skill to execute these plays.

We have never seriously troubled sides in the own 20 - we haven't had a half back with a half decent kicking game nor the attacking structure to create openings so it is no surprise to me that we cannot break sides down in their 20.

The only real set play we have is the dummy half pass to a prop (usually Peacock) Sinfield sweeping round and receiving it off Peacock, with a wedge play (lead runner and Zak out the back)... That's it... The grand sum of our attacking prowess in the opposition 20. This is usually preceded by 3 'nothing plays' to set it up, and if it doesn't work, kick to the opposite corner for Hall.

There is zero creativity in the 'red zone'. A big problem is that our halves are no threat with the ball in hand, so the defence can pick of the runners knowing they'll have the speed to react if either of our halves take the line on themselves. Only Burrow is a threat ball in hand.

The other issue with that wedge play, is that we never use the short ball to the "decoy" runner. It's obvious that the ball is going to go out the back, usually because the decoy goes through too early to be a threat to take the ball. Just once or twice a game, hit the lead runner with a no-look flat pass. Make the inside defenders think before they pass on to the outside players.

The point of mentioning the Magic game was that along with the Saints game you mentioned was that they were the only losses in the first half of the year, conveniently the only two matches you remember from that period.

You mention as has some others about how Wigan beat the cr@p out of us at Magic and others have said it showed teams how to beat us. Well Leeds being "soft" in the forwards and Wigan playing "tough" is hardly new information that people only realised at the Magic weekend. Why couldn't Wigan beat us at Headingley a few weeks earlier if it's that simple using that ploy? People can't honestly argue that Wigan only just stumbled across and tried this tactic against for the first time at the Etihad. Why didn't Warrington or Cas take advantage of this in the Cup? Why did Saints scrape past us with 12 men if we are so easy to batter?

Actually the first 'warning signs' came a week before Magic at Castleford. Yeah we picked up the win against a Cas team on a short turnaround but we started to show signs of dropping off.

It also seems important to point out (even though some will hate this as they don't like "excuses"icon_wink.gif but the time we dropped off also coincided with losing both starting hookers. Shortly after Hardaker and Ablett would pick up various bans (the former proving quite costly IMO in the home loss to Hudds where BJB had a 'mare against Brough). Sinfield missed a few with a back injury, Leuluai missed some too as did a couple more guys.

When we played Saints in the cup we had Hardaker, Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow all playing......those four wouldn't all feature again together until HKR at home. Rusty on that game but when Burrow came on then we slowly worked some good play in the final quarter. The week after home vs Cas......probably our best showing in the second half of the season (with all those players available) and one we should've won until Sinfield's brainfart. We then take all those key guys out again for the shambles vs Bradford and London but see what we're capable of in the cup games with those guys in. We then had no McGuire or Burrow for the Saints and Wigan losses. We then lost to Catalans in the playoffs.....granted like I've mentioned, we simply weren't good enough on the day (yet Briscoe catches the ball and we're through for how poor we were) it can happen in sport. Whilst some are loathe to even hear the words "Challenge Cup" and to them as individuals it was a distant memory it's foolish to not recognise that teams in many sports fail to lift again after a cup win......professional players they may be but rising again to the standard required in a few weeks after getting the one prize they probably wanted most isn't as straight forward as some would like to make it seem for the sake of their argument.

When reviewing the season, if you're going to just focus on the losses then you might want to look at the line-ups and see how many key starters and how many of the spine in particular were missing in those games.

No. Its easier to ignore the cup altogether.

I do agree with the fact that Leeds seem to lack a real structure to the attack in the opposition 20. I think what DHM and others are saying, whilst seeming to disagree partially is actually the same thing. Why three forward drives before even thinking about passing? Why no genuine dummy runners on every play? Its all about structure, and for years I've found it hard to understand why a team with potentially four playmakers on the field at any time looks so much more comfortabkle making plays a long way out than near the line.

Having said that, I do think that we lack a real power forward close to the line - I doubt very much if any decent SL team is that worried when Peacock, Leuluai or any other of our forwards get the ball 'on the charge' near the line.

I don't see too much disagreement overall. I agree with you that we don't offer a forward threat near the line, my view is that the big guys up the middle don't offer an offload threat and we don't have a hooker who can power over from a dominant PTB on the line (I do think it's rare that any big guy hammers over right up the middle), and we don't get our strong back rowers (Ablett and Delaney) in the position to run over half backs out wide near the line either.

It is strange that our playmakers seem to run out of options near the opposition line, I guess you do have to factor in the reduced attacking space and the defence intensifies and has less distance to retreat, but we spent this season unable to convert field position and general domonance in the game into points. A lot has been said about how many games we lost by less than a score, but you could say the opposite - how many games we won by far less of a margin than we should have and how many of those games we lost by less than a score should have been put to bed if we'd been able to score points more freely.
All points to an attacking structure not maximising the talent we have out wide for a lot of the reasons mentioned (I don't think it's just one thing).

You make the problems out to be injuries - injuries are a part of the game, it didn't stop Saints who arguably had more severe injuries to more key players? How would Leeds have gone without Hardaker, Sinfield and Ablett for a big chunk of the season?

Do you think with an ageing squad the injury situation will get better or worse? IMO the situation will worsen - one of my considerations as to why the team will not make the four. As you have already shown in your excuses post the depth of the squad is was simply not there last year so how is that going to improve this year with the addition of one player?

The point about the CC is mute in my view - some like you use it as an reason for the poor form at the end of the season but it doesn't explain the poor form from May to August - I suppose the excuse is injuries!!

The Wigan thing - the platform was set as soon as Bateman stood up JP in game one - Wane saw the soft underbelly, he exposed it in game two which was an embarrassment as a very weak Wigan side showed who was physically going to boss the game. The third game wasn't even a contest. No team in SL have the aggressive culture that Wigan have - no team has a McIllorum that will lead from the front in such a confrontational manner. That is why Warrington and Cas couldn't do that in the cup.

The first half of the season is irrelevant in this argument IMO - the second have is the most tangible evidence we have of where the team is - with all the players fit and something on the line at home the team could no longer perform.

With ageing players performances are going drop off in the second half of the season. You cannot reverse the laws of physics especially with an average quality squad which relies on old players being on the field a lot.

You also fail to address the quality of the coaching and his ability to motivate the squad to deliver. There is only so long that players can listen to the same message and respond positively. Has our attack improved under McDermott? have we developed any new plays?

Most on here believe Leeds "toss it off" through the season, I don't buy that I think 5/6th is realistically where we are as squad and I don't see anything that has happened in the close season to change that view.