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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I wonder what would happen if they took a hair sample of every player playing Superleague at the moment and did the analysis.'"
Questions like that are just begging to get the site in trouble for libel... |
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I wonder what would happen if they took a hair sample of every player playing Superleague at the moment and did the analysis.'"
Keith Senior says he's not bothered at all by your threats. |
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| Quote ="Wheels"Questions like that are just begging to get the site in trouble for libel...'"
It was a question not an accusation. |
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| Quote ="Wheels"Questions like that are just begging to get the site in trouble for libel...'"
Without naming anybody I don't see how? |
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| Quote ="Crossgates Rhino"Without naming anybody I don't see how?'"
Not him, but there are people on this forum who are stupid enough to do so when prompted.
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"Keith Senior says he's not bothered at all by your threats.'"
I would have thought it would work with pubic hair or do you know something about Keith's personal grooming regime that we don't? |
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| Quote ="Inflatable_Armadillo"I would have thought it would work with pubic hair or do you know something about Keith's personal grooming regime that we don't?'"
I'd rather not say if you don't mind, you know how people talk. |
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Whilst agreeing with the education of others by Hock, there is a major problem.
Gareth isn't the sharpest knife in the draw and it would probably take him 12 months intense training for him to be able to present in a coherent manner.
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Thats easy then, Stand Hock in front of classrooms & in his own manner tell the kids about the perils of coke.
When finished he leaves the room, the teacher enters & tells the bemused looking kids "thats what cocaine does to you"
Not only is it good for the kids in sport, in 10-15 years all the drug barrons in the north west will be redundant. |
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"I'd rather not say if you don't mind, you know how people talk.'"
I think you are correct, you don't want everyone knowing what you know about Keith's bushy man-garden! |
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Playing Devils Advocate – hypothetically, what would you rather your son turn out to be?
1) Drunk Driver
2) Wife Beater
3) Serial Assaulter
4) Fraudster
5) Convict
6) Cocaine user
Only one of the above gets an automatic two year ban if they are a professional Rugby League player.
Which one, if you had to, would you choose?
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| Quote ="LS16_Rhino"Playing Devils Advocate – hypothetically, what would you rather your son turn out to be?
1) Drunk Driver
2) Wife Beater
3) Serial Assaulter
4) Fraudster
5) Convict
6) Cocaine user
Only one of the above gets an automatic two year ban if they are a professional Rugby League player.
Which one, if you had to, would you choose?'"
Don't wish to be a pedant, but if you are a convict you are in prison serving a sentence, so that could be a lot longer than two years! You are also very likely to serve time in prison with the understandable exception of wife beater and interestingly cocaine user, for all the other things too!
Only, you don't mention being a professional RL player who broke the clearly laid down rules of his sports governing body? |
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| Quote ="LS16_Rhino"Playing Devils Advocate – hypothetically, what would you rather your son turn out to be?
1) Drunk Driver
2) Wife Beater
3) Serial Assaulter
4) Fraudster
5) Convict
6) Cocaine user
Only one of the above gets an automatic two year ban if they are a professional Rugby League player.
Which one, if you had to, would you choose?'"
As you'll well know, being a Leeds fan, some of the above can get you fired from your club. It's a silly question anyway IMO |
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| Quote ="LS16_Rhino"Playing Devils Advocate – hypothetically, what would you rather your son turn out to be?
1) Drunk Driver
2) Wife Beater
3) Serial Assaulter
4) Fraudster
5) Convict
6) Cocaine user
Only one of the above gets an automatic two year ban if they are a professional Rugby League player.
Which one, if you had to, would you choose?'" I doubt anyone would condone any of them but you can't group them all together.
They are all issues really to be dealt with by the court system and then the employer decide on any further action needed as a result of the outcome of the court case. In the case of drug use in sport at all all sports people know the rules surrounding the use of drugs and what will happen if they are caught - unlike the other issues you mentioned this isn't an issue for for the court system (unless they are caught in possession of the drugs I assume!) therefore it is a different matter imo. |
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| Quote ="LS16_Rhino"Playing Devils Advocate – hypothetically, what would you rather your son turn out to be?
1) Drunk Driver
2) Wife Beater
3) Serial Assaulter
4) Fraudster
5) Convict
6) Cocaine user
Only one of the above gets an automatic two year ban if they are a professional Rugby League player.
Which one, if you had to, would you choose?'"
If I were the devil I'd be firing you and hiring a new lawyer.
I fervently hope my son (if I get round to having one) turns out to be none of the above. Where was that option? Loads of people manage it. Given that a couple of your examples come with degrees of severity, and one of the options is simply a possible outcome of most of the others, your question is difficult to answer. |
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| Didn't he ARL test the entire comp one round after three Newcastle players (Robbie O'Davis rings a bell here) failed drug tests a few years ago?
The result IIRC was that there were no other failed tests. 
All from memory (with no research) so prepared to be informed I'm talking bollox. |
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| Quote ="tvoc"Didn't he ARL test the entire comp one round after three Newcastle players (Robbie O'Davis rings a bell here) failed drug tests a few years ago?
The result IIRC was that there were no other failed tests.
All from memory (with no research) so prepared to be informed I'm talking bollox.'"
You know me tvoc I am inclined to believe your memory over mine, and either way I have never know you talk bollox... you have been wrong a few times, but never talking bollox!
I am very inclined to believe that performance enhancing drug use in RL is virtually non-existent at pro level and not a real problem in amateur RL as well, but possibly more prevalent As for recreational drug use I suspect that in term of statistics for users in their 20's and 30's that RL at both levels will reflect the national average, if the is 1 in 50, then I think that is what you would find. |
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| Quote ="gateaux"I doubt anyone would condone any of them but you can't group them all together.
They are all issues really to be dealt with by the court system and then the employer decide on any further action needed as a result of the outcome of the court case. In the case of drug use in sport at all all sports people know the rules surrounding the use of drugs and what will happen if they are caught - unlike the other issues you mentioned this isn't an issue for for the court system (unless they are caught in possession of the drugs I assume!) therefore it is a different matter imo.'" it is an issue for the court or judicial system, the judicial system decided that having drugs in your system isnt a crime,
for no clear reason sport has decided to take extra-judicial action and moralise only on drugs, ignore the massive difference between recreactional + performance enhancing drugs, and in an act unnacceptable in ANY other area remove the principle of innocent until proven guilty for absolutely no benefit |
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| Quote ="El Diablo"If I were the devil I'd be firing you and hiring a new lawyer.
I fervently hope my son (if I get round to having one) turns out to be none of the above. Where was that option? Loads of people manage it. Given that a couple of your examples come with degrees of severity, and one of the options is simply a possible outcome of most of the others, your question is difficult to answer.'"
i think the point was that there are Drunk Drivers Wife Beaters Serial Assaulters Fraudsters Convicts and Cocaine users in sl, yet we will only ban 1 |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"it is an issue for the court or judicial system, the judicial system decided that having drugs in your system isnt a crime,
for no clear reason sport has decided to take extra-judicial action and moralise only on drugs, ignore the massive difference between recreactional + performance enhancing drugs, and in an act unnacceptable in ANY other area remove the principle of innocent until proven guilty for absolutely no benefit'"
www.wada-ama.org/en/prohibitedlist.ch2
[iIn addition to the categories S1 to S5 and M1 to M3 defined above,
the following categories are prohibited in competition:
PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES
S6. STIMULANTS
All stimulants (including both their D- & L- optical isomers where relevant) are prohibited, except imidazole derivatives for topical use and those stimulants included in the 2009 Monitoring Program*.
Stimulants include:
a: Non Specified Stimulants:
Adrafinil; amfepramone; amiphenazole; amphetamine; amphetaminil; benzphetamine; benzylpiperazine; bromantan; clobenzorex; [size=150cocaine[/size; cropropamide; crotetamide; dimethylamphetamine; etilamphetamine; famprofazone; fencamine; fenetylline; fenfluramine; fenproporex; furfenorex; mefenorex; mephentermine; mesocarb; methamphetamine(D-); methylenedioxyamphetamine; methylenedioxymethamphetamine; p-methylamphetamine; modafinil; norfenfluramine; phendimetrazine; phenmetrazine; phentermine; 4-phenylpiracetam (carphedon); prolintane.
A stimulant not expressly listed in this section is a Specified Substance.[/i
Cocaine actually appears (see above) separetely from the list of narcotics. Sometimes the boundaries between "recreational" and "performance enhancing" are blurred.
This "extra-judicial" action stems form the fact that world sport has a governing body on controlling banned substances in athletes, as many of said substances offer a direct competitive advantage. Extending it to those that don't is a fairly simple extension, and an occupational hazard of being a professional sportsman/woman. This doesn't apply to various other criminal activities because they don't offer competitive advantage in any of their forms and hence remain the duty of normal judicial process. However, many (probably most) sports will take action on grounds of disrepute.
So the little darlings who get to do what they dreamed of doing as a child, and what many of the rest of us wanted to do, don't get to use cocaine. Cry me a freaking river. |
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Quote ="SmokeyTA"it is an issue for the court or judicial system, the judicial system decided that having drugs in your system isnt a crime,
for no clear reason sport has decided to take extra-judicial action and moralise only on drugs, ignore the massive difference between recreactional + performance enhancing drugs, and in an act unnacceptable in ANY other area remove the principle of innocent until proven guilty for absolutely no benefit'"
www.wada-ama.org/en/prohibitedlist.ch2
[iIn addition to the categories S1 to S5 and M1 to M3 defined above,
the following categories are prohibited in competition:
PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES
S6. STIMULANTS
All stimulants (including both their D- & L- optical isomers where relevant) are prohibited, except imidazole derivatives for topical use and those stimulants included in the 2009 Monitoring Program*.
Stimulants include:
a: Non Specified Stimulants:
Adrafinil; amfepramone; amiphenazole; amphetamine; amphetaminil; benzphetamine; benzylpiperazine; bromantan; clobenzorex; [size=150cocaine[/size; cropropamide; crotetamide; dimethylamphetamine; etilamphetamine; famprofazone; fencamine; fenetylline; fenfluramine; fenproporex; furfenorex; mefenorex; mephentermine; mesocarb; methamphetamine(D-); methylenedioxyamphetamine; methylenedioxymethamphetamine; p-methylamphetamine; modafinil; norfenfluramine; phendimetrazine; phenmetrazine; phentermine; 4-phenylpiracetam (carphedon); prolintane.
A stimulant not expressly listed in this section is a Specified Substance.[/i
Cocaine actually appears (see above) separetely from the list of narcotics. Sometimes the boundaries between "recreational" and "performance enhancing" are blurred.
This "extra-judicial" action stems form the fact that world sport has a governing body on controlling banned substances in athletes, as many of said substances offer a direct competitive advantage. Extending it to those that don't is a fairly simple extension, and an occupational hazard of being a professional sportsman/woman. This doesn't apply to various other criminal activities because they don't offer competitive advantage in any of their forms and hence remain the duty of normal judicial process. However, many (probably most) sports will take action on grounds of disrepute.
So the little darlings who get to do what they dreamed of doing as a child, and what many of the rest of us wanted to do, don't get to use cocaine. Cry me a freaking river. | |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"i think the point was that there are Drunk Drivers Wife Beaters Serial Assaulters Fraudsters Convicts and Cocaine users in sl, yet we will only ban 1'"
What is the point though? That we don't take enough action on certain other things? Or that because there is no international governing body on wife beating we should shrug our shoulders and say drug use is OK? Thinking a harder line could be taken on certain other things (which is a separate debate anyway) doesn't do much to alter the ethics of this issue in my book. Sorry. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"i think the point was that there are Drunk Drivers Wife Beaters Serial Assaulters Fraudsters Convicts and Cocaine users in sl, yet we will only ban 1'"
The others are all issues of employment law and AFAIK the RFL cannot act against the individual, as it depends on the employees contract of employment. The RFL has adopted rules on taking drugs that may improve performance in line with WADA. They have advised all clubs that compete that these laws are in place and that any player must adhere to these rules. They are not affecting the employment of the player just stating that they will be banned from playng. To protect themselves I'm sure that clubs put stipulations on drugs, as well as other illegal activities into their contracts of employment.
Hock under the RFL(WADA) rules has been suspended from playing prior to being found guilty, based on the first and now second samples. The club have suspended him (I assume on full pay) until the outcome of the investigation. At that point they can look at whether they have a right to terminate his contract of employment under its terms.
Player's can only have their contract of employment terminatd, subject to its terms, once a criminal activity has been convicted in a court of law. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"
for no clear reason sport has decided to take extra-judicial action and moralise only on drugs, ignore the massive difference between recreactional + performance enhancing drugs, and in an act unnacceptable in ANY other area remove the principle of innocent until proven guilty for absolutely no benefit'"
I would completely disagree with you on all your points!
WADA does not moralise and that is why if he had been tested outside of competition he would not have got a formal ban for using Cocaine! In doing so, they do make a clear distinction between performance enhancing drugs and recreational drugs outside of competition. When it comes to in-competition testing their position is also clear, ALL drugs, unless approved for use or approved under the medical exception scheme (asthma drugs being the most common) are banned. They do not take a moral stand point, they stop people from what they see as cheating at sport!
And when did the RFL (under the WADA guidelines) say he was guilty and they have not banned him yet, it is just very likely. He failed an in-competition drugs test, they tested his b sample which also failed. He now appears before a committee who will decide if he gets a ban, again likely to be two years.
Wigan have suspended him, as far as I am aware the RFL have not removed his registration, if he appeals against the ban, as far as I am aware, he will be able to continuing playing until his appeal his heard but I suspect Wigan will keep him suspended. That is up to them, not the RFL. I also suspect, thinking about employment law, that he will be suspended on full pay, until he gets a ban and then Wigan can sack him for gross misconduct! |
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| Quote ="finglas"The others are all issues of employment law and AFAIK the RFL cannot act against the individual, as it depends on the employees contract of employment. The RFL has adopted rules on taking drugs that may improve performance in line with WADA. They have advised all clubs that compete that these laws are in place and that any player must adhere to these rules. They are not affecting the employment of the player just stating that they will be banned from playng. To protect themselves I'm sure that clubs put stipulations on drugs, as well as other illegal activities into their contracts of employment.
Hock under the RFL(WADA) rules has been suspended from playing prior to being found guilty, based on the first and now second samples. The club have suspended him (I assume on full pay) until the outcome of the investigation. At that point they can look at whether they have a right to terminate his contract of employment under its terms.
Player's can only have their contract of employment terminatd, subject to its terms, once a criminal activity has been convicted in a court of law.'"
Brilliant post, agree with you, as you can see below.
The only thing I understand, is that if in his Wigan employment contract that drug use is considered gross misconduct (which I think it will be!) and they have sufficient proof they can just sack him, he would not need to be convicted of a criminal offence. If he was not happy he can take them to an employment tribunal.
As it is, I suspect Wigan will wait until the outcome of possible ban and maybe even after an appeal (which I suspect will not happen), to decide on their action as a club. It just makes more sense to do it that way! |
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| Quote ="Inflatable_Armadillo"Brilliant post, agree with you, as you can see below.
The only thing I understand, is that if in his Wigan employment contract that drug use is considered gross misconduct (which I think it will be!) and they have sufficient proof they can just sack him, he would not need to be convicted of a criminal offence. If he was not happy he can take them to an employment tribunal.
As it is, I suspect Wigan will wait until the outcome of possible ban and maybe even after an appeal (which I suspect will not happen), to decide on their action as a club. It just makes more sense to do it that way!'" They would have to be careful though as the WADA has plenty legal drugs on their list and would taking them be gross misconduct. I would suspect that until the hearing they would be on dodgy ground sacking a player based on an "in competition" drug test |
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| Quote ="finglas"They would have to be careful though as the WADA has plenty legal drugs on their list and would taking them be gross misconduct. I would suspect that until the hearing they would be on dodgy ground sacking a player based on an "in competition" drug test'"
Yes you are right, but I suspect his employment contract might say something "the taking of illegal drugs or drugs banned by the RFL" might be considered gross misconduct. I think if they did sack him now it might be a little dodgy, but as they are doing you might as well just wait and get all the evidence and facts complete before making a decision. |
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