G1's post was brilliant. I have never understood people on here who get on their high horse and attempt to laugh at others for attending rugby league games, that I'm assuming we all still love. I'm sure they're all looking for a bite, well after years of reading such posts, here is my "bite", and beware it's a long one, so fat boy, switch off, as I'm not giving you a shortened version.


Do I laugh at others for spending all that money on fags, and going out three times a week and getting so drunk they can't say their name?

For me, rugby is about socialising as it is for many others. Of course, 80 minutes of rugby is the main factor of the day, but it's definitely not the be all and end of.

I've met some fantastic people through rugby (some of the away fans suddenly spring to mind), and I still regularly meet them to this day. Hull fans that I met on a night out in Watford at the cc final, salford fans that were in Manchester after the game once etc etc. There's too many to remember.

Some great moments have come out of away days at rugby in particular, running through Twickenham to get into the ground for the second half. Our taxi breaking down in Salford. Running through Piccadilly on countless occasions (I do understand it would be easier to just get a treadmill). I also remember the time we forgot the final tickets and my mate had to go all the way back up the M1 to meet him.

I accept some people would prefer to have an easier life and listen to it on t'wireless, but for me, I enjoy attending rugby games, for the on and off field drama, win or lose (as long as there is a degree of effort put in).

Some people pick and choose only a handful of games. They go to france to get there holiday in etc, for me, I don't care about that, I'm happy with a saturday afternoon in Hull (Please can everyone refrain from using that as a signature), or sunday afternoon venturing around the capital then sat on the riverbank in Richmond.

I don't have a season ticket anymore as I am obliged to miss the odd friday fixture, so it doesn't make economic sense, but as people have stated in the past, it's an emotional roller coaster, and one I enjoy being part of. Some people feel the same about attending fancy restaurants, and having numerous packs of cigs a day.

Does it make me thick or stupid because I spend 70pound going to warrington, or going to wigan when I know our chances of winning are slim, when I could just watch it on sky, post on here every night attempting to wind people up, and turn up to Manchester in October. Who is one to judge on how one spends ones money?

May I ask you a personal question and please don't feel obliged to answer but are you, in any way, connected to the club?

I only say this as all your opinions seem to run in parallel with those issued in press releases and interviews from senior club employees.

Rhinowinorlose. I like your sentiment and I have tried to maintain an air of positivity in an otherwise over reaction of doom and gloom but I am going to have to disagree with a couple of issues from your opening post.

Firstly, you give far too much credit to Mcdermott for Hardaker last year. As I recall he was introduced to the team, played very well, hit some good form and was then inexplicably dropped. McDermott had a knack of doing that early doors last year, dropping players just as they hit form. Had it not been for injuries to Watkins and Senior I doubt the coach would have pulled his masterstroke of playing Zak in the centres on the run in. It was necessity, not coaching nous.

And putting Burrow on the bench at dummy half was a regressive step that took the team backwards. He's been the starting 7 since 2005 and enjoyed great success with him there (and McGuire at 6 and Sinfield at 13). There's been great indecision from McDermott about how to use Rob and, resultant, this has affected our hooking position. Mcdermott's use of Burrow and the issues that has created elsewhere is not a positive in my humble opinion.

Otherwise, keep up the good work.

I'm not connected to the Club in any way

Aren't you Keith Senior's agent???

Just call me Agent KS. Man in Blue & Amber or Lime Green or Pink.

Hi Fat Boy (that sounds so rude!!) - haha, no I'm not connected to the Club, just a regular home-and-away fan like most of you guys. It's fair to say that I do have a lot of faith in the management though!!

G1 - thanks for your reply. I think Mac was right to phase Zak in over last year - I've said it loads in this thread but I don't agree with bringing kids through too quickly and while he had the physical experience from Fev, he would have needed to adjust to a new Club and very different environment, so spending a bit of time in the 20s was right as far as I'm concerned. Obviously I also mention in my initial post how well Ablett's done at centre so with his experience it was a decision McDermott could afford to make. Dont' forget Zak was also injured for 6 weeks at the back end of March.

I think Burrow is a difficult subject but I can't agree that the decision to play him off the bench was regressive. I really believe that if he's playing scrum half, he can create some of the magic we're used to off the bench where he can't when he starts, and again at hooker he can control the game and spot the gaps better. The last three games he's started at scrum half were Warrington away on Friday, Saints away and the CC semi-final against Cas last year - the semi-final was a terrible game, as was Saints away, but on Friday, we got a lot better on 30 minutes and had a really good last 50. It's no coincidence that this was when Lunt was subbed for Ward, and Burrow switched back to hooker.

......but do you believe in the return of grandad Senior....and gay marriage ?

The stats are not intended to tell the whole story but they are included here for readers to interpret in their own way.

I think the actual phrase I used was =#0000BF"a couple of above average finishes, a couple of below average finishes but overall pretty consistently somewhere in the mid-pack."

If you have a specific problem with that terminoligy then perhaps you'd care to share it?

The list, I think, is factually accurate and covers London's pre-McDermott record covering the 1996 to 2005 seasons inclusive. They give a quantifiable indication of where London were finishing the Regular Rounds before McDermott's influence was brought to bear on the club - and can be compared with those that followed McDermott's arrival. For the record you're saying 5 of those finishes were outside the play-off positions. It's actually 6 plus there were no play-offs in 1996 and 1997. London have so far made the play-offs in 2003 and 2005 - but they failed to do so under coach McDermott's four and a bit years at the helm and that despite the play-off grouping being extended from six to eight clubs for 2009 and 2010.



Sometimes life is tough. I get the impression you don't follow the 'no excuses' mantra. Did Fa'afilli ever play a game for London/Harlequins RL, IIRC he was off to play RU without ever lacing a boot for McDermott?



The last eight years don't particularly concern me anymore, it's the direction it's currently heading in that's the issue. It also appears to concern the CEO (who at least is beginning to question attitudes within the players), the coach and the players themselves if the regular soundbites coming out of Headingley are to be believed.



=#FF0000That will probably come as news to record keepers everywhere.

=#0000BFI agree with Cummings that video ref Ganson made a harsh call on the interpretation of the kick/knock on but IIRC with 9 minutes remaining the awarding of the try wouldn't have guaranteed the reversal of the result as you imply here. It may have but it equally may not have as Wigan chasing the game would have approached their remaining sets with a different mindset just as they had done at Headingley earlier in the season.

The point, as I'm sure you'll appreciate, is that under McDermott Leeds are recording fewer wins (on average scoring fewer points while conceding more) when compared to the final season under McClennan - when facing their major competitors for honours. That really ought to be a concern to the powers that be (even if not a concern to some fans) as they will not be able to avoid, lets say, a Wigan in the play-offs every year as they were able to do in 2011. McDermott's Leeds record V Wigan is now =#0000BFDraw, =#FF0000Loss, =#FF0000Loss, =#FF0000Loss, =#FF0000capitulation and perhaps even more of a concern is that since Maguire changed the culture of the ex-Central Park club Leeds have won only two from the last ten (with one draw) and those two by a cumulative points advantage of 3. By comparison the losses (bar the previously referred to McGuire 'No Try' game) Leeds haven't really been anywhere that close on the final scoreboard.

I'd hoped those days were behind Leeds but they have returned. Whether they remain long term is in Leeds' hands. Inaction is not the answer. What any serious club requires first and foremost is a top-class head-coach - one that the players can understand and follow. Not convinced that Brian McDermott can take the club forward, no matter how many 'lucky draws' his team benefit from.

I can't help but read your opening statement in a camp voice in my head.

Regarding your point against bringing youth through two soon I don't fully agree with. I think each person should be judged on a individual basis depending on their physical and mental development. Some kids are ready
For first team action sooner and shouldn't be held back because "we don't play them regulary till there 20" attitude. I am not a expert
So I will go with decisions made by the coaching team who are more qualified

On McDermott people are entitled to their opinion on him. Last Season I was critical and probably said things in the heat of the moment. I have learnt my lessons and tried to be more patient and not personal against him, I feel he at least earned the right to be given time last year and so I have tried not to be too critical. I think most people who are making these comments are doing so after or during a poor performance. Which i can understand. It passion and they are upset by poor performances.

Hi tvoc - where I mention Fa'afili is that someone of that experience will feature massively in your pre-season plans, so when, as you rightly say, they never even get to play for you, that has a big impact on your team and your season. I don't ever believe in 'no excuses' (though I do think excuses only get you so far), and at a Club like London which struggles to be self-sustaining due to lack of interest in the area, financial backing is massively important to the formation of a decent team.

I think that the success over the last 8 years has shown the desire of the management to build and maintain a competitive, winning team, so when I say I'm not concerned, this is because I believe they will get it right in time for us to be better next year (at the latest).

I beg your pardon saying we lost against Wigan at home last year, of course we drew, but this only assists my point further. I agree that McGuire's try may not have determined the outcome of the away game, but I think you appreciate what I'm saying, which is that the performances were a lot better than the stats you selected show. If we hadn't won the League last year I would probably give more credit to the 6/43 games that you are quoting, but I still don't think you are fair to use these six games only. You also say we avoided a Wigan in the play-offs last year, but are using Warrington, whom we played and beat, as one of the three teams we need to be using as a benchmark. We also beat your other benchmark team, St Helens, in the Final. You're also discussing the Maguire era, with one of those years being played under McClennan not McDermott, which points the finger at the players more than Mac.

Like I say, I think the last 8 years has shown the desire of the Club to win, so I don't worry about inaction. I also have to ask how you KNOW that the players don't understand and follow McDermott.

Ferdy - I don't think I suggest at any point that we should wait until a player is 20 to play him regularly (I certainly don't disagree with Stevie Ward getting a few games!), sorry if I've given that impression. If you read through my earlier posts my focus has been on being mentally and physically ready, and like you I think this varies from player to player.

I'm pretty much in agreement with Ferdy - I went off a bit too quick against BM last season, so am a bit wary of having too much of a go this year.

The problems within the club - and nobody can say a 50 point loss at home with a close to full-strength team followed by a just as p*ss poor first half performance the next game aren't suggestive of BIG problems - are a combination of coach and players. No matter how much people might want to make big changes to the squad quickly, its very hard to do, likely to be counterproductive in terms of whatever team spirit exists, and to be frank the lists of players on other threads are hardly inspiring anyway.

That leaves the coach. BM has to either really stamp his authority on the team or go. IMO he'll be given to the end of the year to oversee a miraculous turnaround, but if it doesn't happen won't be here next year.

Regardless of whoever the coach is, its clear that the attitude of some players needs to change. Losing by 50 at home to anybody is simply unacceptable unless you have almost your entire first team out. I'd be more impressed with the players' attitude if they actually DIDN'T say anything to the press - the whole "we know we didn't perform, we're working hard in training, we have the ability to sort it out" mantra is pathetic TBH seeing how they've been saying it for half the season and seem if anything to be getting worse not better.

GH agrees IMO - just as he was obviously upset by the CC loss to the Wire. If I were betting, I'd go for CC semi exit and failure in the play-offs, followed by BM's departure and one or two biggish name signings for next year to placate the masses. Possibly a good job I don't bet, as I can also convince myself the exact opposite is possible.

The problem with the "biggish name signings" is that by then (yet again) it will be too late. Still, it gives GH an excuse for the customary all expenses paid trip down under.

Hi BrisbaneRhino - you make some really good points, and I agree for the most part. It probably won't come as a surprise to you though if I say that I think it would be a real shame if McDermott was to leave at the end of the year, and would hope that with the support GH gave him last week, that that won't happen. I think we've seen it a lot in football where management thinks that sacking the coach is a quick-fix, but often the teams that have done this fly through coaches and end up shelling out huge sums of money because they haven't really addressed the problem, and of course St Helens will have now had three different coaches in as many years and they only sit fourth in the table, four points ahead of us, who have a game in hand. They're already out of the Challenge Cup so unless they win the Grand Final, I can't see how they will be any better off than us by the end of the year whether we win or lose the League.

Wigan clearly was exceptionally poor as was our start at Warrington, but I thought the last 50 minutes was a step in the right direction. I said in an earlier post that I think the problem with some of the lads is more desperation than just having a bad attitude (I know you don't say they have a bad attitude), and I'm sure that if we can build on that last 50 at Warrington and play well on Monday and then again against Cas, that will slowly start to go away. I don't think we need any huge changes to the squad (when I say that, I mean that I think the likes of Sinfield, Peacock, McGuire, Burrow, etc will come good for us), but I would like to see us sign a Buderus-type person - I think that would lift everybody; in the changing room, on the field and in the stands.

I totally agree with you about the players speaking after the game - I don't mind if you train badly in the week, just perform come game time!! I think the Challenge Cup semi will be a real test of their mettle and we can't doubt how much they want to finally win that trophy, but it will again come down to whether we play with desperation or composure! I would also really hope that we don't just sign big names to placate the masses - whenever anyone says that the names "Bradley Clyde" and "Brett Mullins" pop into my head!!

That's really spooky! Whenever someone says Brian McDermott....[url=http://www.tainongseeds.com/CabbageRound.htmlTHIS[/url pops into my head!!

Yes because who plays on the wing is of absolute paramount importance to the functioning of the team. People can talk about the neccessity of having a quality spine - full-back, half-back, hooker and an awesome foursome to carry you forward until the cows come home but without a good winger to score a few tries they are pretty much pointless.

I entirely take your observation that investment is vital but do you take mine that so too is good coaching to get the maximum out of whatever you are given to work with? The uncomfortable fact remains that London's league position worsened under four and a bit seasons with McDermott as he took them from a mid-table challenger to play-off qualifing no hopers. There was a time when coaches built their reputations on leaving a club in a better position than when they joined it. Not neccessarily in terms of trophies (not every team/coach is in that position), it could be in terms of structure, professionalism, performance etc. Perhaps McDermott did that it's not always easy to tell but sport tends to be viewed from the outside as a results based industry.

If McDermott found himself on the job market tomorrow I doubt there'd be a queue forming to enlist his services. I could be wrong but it would be interesting to find out.



I admire your blind faith but what evidence have you seen that the club has recognised the problems and are currently addressing the needs? Is it the extension of Carl Ablett's existing contract beyond doomsday?



The stats are an overview. They show Leeds becoming less competitive against the teams they need to be competitive against. They show in McClennan's final season Leeds still winning in 50% of the regular round encounters V such opponents. That's no longer the case, not even close to being the case.



Leeds didn't win the league last year they finished 5th. Leeds won an end of season 'knock-out' competition to determine the Champions from a ridiculously large and in parts undeserving field of entrants. It was a great feat, totally unexpected and anyone who seriously claims any different inhabits a peculiar blue and amber tinged world, IMO. But these things occassionally happen in sport - without being too specific - the rub of the green, the bounce of the ball, an intercept just after half-time, a missed tackle, a contentious referee's decision, a team not handling the pressure of being overwhelming favourites even with home advantage against a team they'd humbled twice in the regular rounds etc. It's a great concept .... it's sport ..... it happens ... now and again. It's unlikely to ever become a formula that will work year after year though.

=#FF00006 of 43 ?

I presume the 43 is made up of last season and this' SL Regular Rounds to date?

Have Leeds not played Warrington, Wigan and St Helens home and away in both 2011 and 2012 now. While =#0000BF12 of 43 is a 28% size sample when including all SL opponents it's realistically a 95% + sample of the teams Leeds will need to be competitive against when the trophies are being handed out.



Leeds (thanks to agent St Helens) did avoid the team they were unable to beat in three meetings last season. Leeds did avoid the team in the play-offs they have never beaten in a 1st grade final. Leeds did avoid a team who McDermott has thus far never coached a Leeds side to beat, (although somewhat ironically he found himself in the winner's circle quite often when London/Harlequins played them.) Perhaps they will get a 'lucky' draw again this year, fingers crossed eh. I imagine that technique has made it's way in to the Leeds CEO's manual by now.



Not sure I follow your logic as it's a similar squad of players under different coaches.

Leeds with McClennan managed to beat Wigan even in 2010 after Maguire had arrived. McClennan left Leeds with a 50% record V the cherry and white mob and an average result of 19-19. Leeds with McDermott have taken 1 point from a possible 10 (10%) and an average result of 16-29 by comparison.

By way of historical comparison: Leeds Coaches V Wigan SL Era

Graham Murray - 63% (Avg Rst 15-14)
Tony Smith - 57% (Avg Rst 27-16)
Brian McCennan - 50% (Avg Rst 19-19)
Daryl Powell - 40% (Avg Rst 24-29)
Dean Lance - 33% (Avg Rst 13-27)
Brian McDermott - 10% (Avg Rst 16-29)
Dean Bell - 0% (Avg Rst 15-40)



I don't I only get to observe how they perform on some match-days and compare that level to what they are capable of when they switch on. Coaching is a combination of player development and man management. The players have to want to follow the leaders. They know when they are being short-changed and I imagine so do some of the fans.

TVOC, when did Wigan become the yard stick? Leeds have contested 13 domestic finals under the coaches you have listed. They've only played Wigan in two of those finals (lost them both) but have beaten Wigan many times to reach the other 11.

Hi tvoc - you and I are just never going to agree! I think you're being a bit too dismissive of my comments re Fa'afili, who could play centre and wing, offering some versatility and great experience which could be passed to his colleagues. I agree with you that of course the spine is important but I would never say players such as Keith Senior didn't make a tremendous difference to our team because he didn't form part of the spine; what made Keith a quality player was not just his ability to score a few tries, but his experience and physicality, which is enormously important as both support to his senior teammates and as an example to younger players. Fa'afili was just one example of players that didn't play or left - another example is Henry Paul, who was never replaced, again a player with great experience who could lead a team.

I agree with you that a good coach should get the most of the players he has, but who's to say that McDermott didn't? Myself and other posters have talked a lot about attitude within this thread, and I've already mentioned that London is a Club which in recent years has primarily attracted players who just want to play rugby (this doesn't inspire anyone to play for pride in the shirt they're wearing). A standard contract is 2-3 years, and with lack of financial investment it is difficult to let a problem player (or players) go before his contract ends, so in most cases you just have to sit it out and do your best.

I don't think for a second that I have "blind faith" in the management - again, we've 8 years worth of primarily incredible memories which I use as evidence of their desire to win (unless you would suggest that this was all just luck?) I don't need to see any headlines to know, off the back of this obvious desire to be successful, that it will be being worked on behind the scenes, but of course, GH's acknowledgement of the disappointing results last week was a nice to have. We seem to be two sides of a coin on this - me with my faithful view, you with a cynical one. (And I think it's a rather too early to be using the word "doomsday"icon_wink.gif.

For me, the season is all about the Grand Final, and I think if you ask any player (perhaps particularly a Warrington player) whether or not they want to finish top or win the Grand Final, they'll all say they want to win the Grand Final. If you ask them how long the season runs, they'll say until October, not until September. All those elements you discuss, "rub of the green", "bounce of the ball", "a contentious referee", a team bowing to pressure by being overwhelming favourites happen week in, week out, and thus effect your League standing. We did not play well for the majority of the season last year, I make no mistake about that, but we reached the Grand Final and won because we were the better team against everyone we played. If we'd played like that all the way through the season, we would have finished a lot higher; we proved that the potential was always there.

Apologies again, my maths was wrong there. We might have avoided Wigan in the run up to the Final, but obviously we did not avoid them in the Cup. While the first 15 minutes of that game was really poor, the remaining 65 was brilliant, and we undoubtedly outplayed them. We could have beaten Wigan that day, but getting out of the starting blocks late as we did proved to be costly, and I don't think you could blame Mac for that. I suppose my answer here is that we could have beaten them, in a 1st grade final, for the first time under Brian McDermott.

You specifically mentioned that we'd only beaten Wigan twice in ten games since Michael Maguire arrived at Wigan, and so I was pointing out that 1 of the last 2.5 years was under Brian McClennan, and like I say, this suggests something in the players mentality. While I appreciate one draw from five games is not what we might have hoped for, you're comparing a man who's had the job 18 months to Tony Smith who had 4 years and Brian McClennan who had 3 years, and these stats don't take into account injuries to either our team or Wigan's, which of course effect the game. Incidentally, under Graham Murray we lost the 1998 Grand Final, which I would gladly have swapped for the in-season wins.

You say the players know when they are being short-changed. In the last 18 months, under Mac, Kevin Sinfield (Feb 11), Carl Ablett (May 12), Kylie Leuluai (May 12), Zak Hardaker (May 12), Jamie Peacock (March 12), Brett Delaney (Feb 12), Kallum Watkins (Jan 12), Ryan Hall (Jan 12), Chris Clarkson (Dec 11), Jamie Jones-Buchanan (Dec 11), and Ian Kirke (July 11) have all signed contract extensions, which tells me that they don't believe they are being short-changed by either the Club or McDermott. I agree, we know what they are capable of, but it's not like we haven't seen them switch on under Mac.

Again I just don't think we're ever going to agree!

To be fair just using a Wigan comparsion over a large period of time isn't too fair, McDermott isn't exactly facing the Wigan of 2005-2006.

Well said 'rhinoswinorlose'! You make some good and fair points.

There is nothing wrong with constructive criticism but much of the stuff on here is just negative and a repeat of the comments made last year by the usual suspects. I defended Brian Mac last season (and was also called Brian) and cannot believe after what he achieved last season and the WCC this season that the knives are out once again. I suspect some posters having been proved so wrong last season are banking on history not repeating itself and feel safe in having a go again just to say they were right all along.

Yes we have been dissappointing again against the SL leaders but the ageing stars are another year older. Having produced the goods at the business end last year and again for the WCC this year it is perfectly understandable that the coach would keep faith with this outstanding squad for a little longer. To suggest we drop our proven quality stars of the team and replace them with unproven (at SL level) en mass, because they have suffered a drop in form is not the way to manage a professional sports team.

Yes we should now give the youngsters some experience but in a controlled way with consideration to their future careers. And yes we should be looking to recruit in certann key positions as part of a succession policy.

Finally we should all remember that despite our recent tremendous success, it is not a God given right to win every match. There are now some excellent other sides around who have taken up the batten. I still believe that this side has another last hurrah in it.

Which other team would you like to suggest instead? What is Leeds' overall SL record against that club? Do you expect McDermott's Leeds to feature significantly higher on such a list than they do V the example I chose to highlight?

As coach McDermott's SL Regular Round record at Leeds places him nestled between Dean Bell and Dean Lance (although with the benefit of some 'lucky' cup draws he moves up to around the Daryl Powell mark when including all comps) I wouldn't expect a big improvement but who knows.

How about a team that has won 5 of the lst 8 championships? Why shouldn't other clubs measure themselves against that?

Being beaten is acceptable, being embarrasingly thrashed owing to poor technique, bad discipline and lack of (visible) coaching on more than one occassion not so.

(Oh and by the way... it's [ibaton[/i)

Right on we are the benchmark

Some of us already know this.....