The bench usually plays so very little minutes you can't really point towards them as going wrong when on the field.

DHM - I tend to agree a bit more with Him, as I wouldn't underestimate the role of power forwards in setting up attacking play. A blockbusting forward hitting the line draws in defenders and provides options for the next play that simply don't exist if a forward plods into the line then gets manhandled into a slow PTB. I don't think Leeds have a single forward who decent opposition are genuinely scared could score a try through sheer power if they drop their guard.

Halfbacks need time and space to work in. Thurston looked as hopeless as anybody when the Cowboys were getting pummelled in the first half on friday. As soon as his forwards got parity he began to run the whole show and the whole team looked miles better.

I'm not saying Sinfield and McGuire have been great, but IMO some of the issues Leeds have in attack have been around for a long time - too many chiefs (sometimes we have three halfbacks plus a hooker on the field) and not enough out-and-out power in the forwards.

Peacock helps hide this due to his massive workrate - but I agree with the Eagle (I think) who suggest that when he's gone the whole structure of the front row will have to be addressed.

I also think we need to stop the messing around with Burrow and AN Other at hooker. If Burrow is to be hooker, start him there and put a bigger player on the bench. If he's not breaking games open from the bench then there's zero point him being there either. Given the fact that his distribution from dummy half is pretty poor, I'd say its time to move him back into scrum half.

To be frank, Leeds are now entering a very difficult period, and I don't envy whichever coach is there. I do thoink changes have to be made though, and its probably time that messages were sent to the senior players not retiring next year that coasting is no longer good enough.

I reckon the bench plays few minutes because they don't offer much and it's seen as better to have a knackered Peacock on the pitch than a fresh Kirke or Bailey. So Peacock is on for as long as is absolutely possible.

I know it can be a bit of a vicious circle in that as they only get few minutes it's more difficult to shine, but too often I see Kirke or Bailey come on to spell Peacock or Leuluai and they make no impact whatsoever. I could understand if they came on and were defensive workhorses, but they're not. Neither are excellent in defence, Bailey in particular is poor in this area. So they offer very little.

That has been typical of his season - his decision making has been very poor compared to his usual high standard in that regard. I wonder if what happened in the world cup has impacted his confidence - he definitely hasn't been anything like the player this season that he has been in previous seasons

At the start of the season Leeds were on fire. Burrow & McGuire in the halves working off the back of a decent pack. It all went a bit pear shaped when Burrow got injured.

Peacock & Leuluai will do one more season. McGuire needs to have a really good pre-season as he looks really out of shape.

I reckon Burrow will move on for 2015. He had a deal to go to Cas for 2014 all squared off until McDermott gave him the half back spot ahead of Sinfield. Don't be surprised if he moves there to finish at his home town club.

The end of season fade out was all to do with the determination to win the CC. Once that was done, the older players had the monkey off their back & the focus on winning the GF, which was unlikely, was not as strong as perhaps it should have been.

Briscoe has been a bit disappointing. Very much a confidence player who doesn't seem to believe in or back himself.

Personally I still like Briscoe and I am hoping this years lack of consistency is down to bedding into a new team. However, I am concerned that the lack of understanding between him and Watkins is not getting any better. How many passes have gone straight into touch? Is this a Briscoe or a Watkins problem? As for Watkins, havent seen anything special from him this year.

Bailey has one of the best tackles made/missed tackles percentages in the team

Peacock 780 made / 55 missed
Delaney 751/53
Ablett 660/59
Aiton 557/29
Sinfield 534/39
Stevie Ward 515/51
Singleton 467/44
Leuluai 448/39
Bailey 433/20
Watkins 427/27

As others have said, the pack have been too easily bogged down with the consequence that when the ball has gone wide (often slowly) the main onus on the outside backs has still been to make metres up field rather than taking the riskier option of cutting loose. Contrast us with Wigan: by the time they're on their 4th or 5th they're well up field and put the ball wide with lots of dummy runners and tend to make good metres. Their attacks don't always pay off but if not the turnover is still close to the opponents line. We struggle to get to half way by the 5th, having ventured little in the way of attacking play. We then put a long kick in, usually with a good chase it has to be said, but the chasers have already taken a battering whilst getting the kicker into position. The turnover is often in the same area as Wigan's but by then our defenders are exhausted and yield ground readily, often on the back of a penalty of the kind often given away by a fatigued defence.
Our halves are slow; that they are quality players is still apparent but they now play at a tempo reminiscent of good players that have dropped down to championship level.
Our long and short kicking games often leave much to be desired, although in the former instance much of the fault is from playing behind a labouring pack.
Aiton does a job, not much more, and the perception of Burrow having retained his speed is purely that; too often he's running at markers who've had ample time to position themselves but even when he's not, he's easily caught.

For me the decision by Hardaker to get the ball over the try line rather than grounding it and taking time over a drop out, kicking it 50/60m down field is the bigger fault. We didn't need the points, we needed field position and time. Briscoe knocking on is unfortunate and even if he had caught it would have been forced back over the line anyway due to the entire defence being 5+ yards offside - how it wasn't picked up by the video ref is beyond me! Maybe we should start a Twitbook group and harangue the RFL into investigating it!

I don't recall too many times this year when the Leeds pack has been significantly outplayed or battered. I think our pack has been as good as anyones. What we do with the ball is the issue. First part of the season we attacked with depth, width and confused the opposition with Hardaker running free on both flanks. Achurch was being given the ball in a wide channel on the right and was looking like the real deal at last rather than having Delaney et al constantly attacking the angle back into the space behind the ruck, which was the only way we made metres last season. It didn't last, and I don't think that is because our props got tired.
Achurch and then Burrow getting injured, followed by Hardaker's ban saw Leeds revert to what they have been dong for the last 2-3 seasons, and our attack fell apart. What really gets you a quick PTB against a disorganised defence is putting a few offloads together, if we had King Kong in the front row it wouldn't help if all he did was stick the ball up his jumper and ran down the middle.

What I think we need? A really good wide running second row on the right to balance up with Ablett on the left (Achurch almost looked like he was going to do the job but frankly patience with him has expired), a top class 9 so Burrow can play 7 and McGuire can retire gracefully, and some very new ideas on attack that have for example, Ryan Hall getting the ball like Big Les used to get it from Hape, 5 yards out and on the move (he's score every week if we gave him a couple of those) - and that means a fresh coaching structure.

I'd agree with all of this although maybe a little harsh on Achurch. He [iwas[/i begining to look like what was needed on the right but since his recovery from injury the coach has reverted to giving him bit parts ....and at prop.

It's almost as if any fringe player who begins to look like a threat to any of McDermott's favourites is again put back in his place for fear of then having to make some tougher selection decisions.

Briscoe obviously has had a poor season, but he has been given very little running chances from his inside backs.
Looking at the wire -widnes match chris bridges passing to Monaghan was superb, drawing the cover and passing. Briscoe is a good finisher but he needed some quality ball, on most occasions this season he did not get decent ball.

Spot on!

Briscoe and BJB scored plenty of tries off Watkins at the start of the season. Wonder how much ball Briscoe would have got had Tony Smith been coaching Leeds this year?

ALOT more

I get your point DHM, and certainly wouldn't argue about the need for a second row with oomph a bit wider, but frankly any decent defence would not worry at all about either Peacock or Leuluai running at them either, no matter how close to the line. That means they don't need to pack the defence up the middle quite as much.

That issue is probably compounded by the fact that Aiton's no threat from acting half either - he played 20 games for not a single try.

Personally, and I know it would be unpopular for any number of reasons, but I'd love to see Hock at Leeds, as he'd provide the sort of punch we lack (not to mention threads a gazillion pages long).

In the end it comes down to structure as well as personnel, and its really odd that a team with anything up to five playmakers on the field at times is unable to fashion a set of 6 near the opponents' line that causes them real trouble. If anything I think it speaks of too many chiefs.

In any event the consensus seems to be that the era of Burrow as sub/ hooker should be over regardless. If he's not breaking games open from the bench its a waste of a bench place.

agree with most of that. In addition I would say that although our forwards make good meters, yhere is more to winning games than eating up the most meters. We dont really have forwards who get their noses through yhe line and get the defrnce retreating or quick play the balls. I think that is a major reason for lack of cutting edge

You're right, there is little threat up the middle (made the point about McShane's ability to crash over from close in earlier). I actually think a big problem with that is the offload game we now don't play anymore. If the forwards up the middle could pop a few offloads it would draw in defenders and create the space out wide. I reckon a big reason we don't offload much is because McGuire isn't the support player he was and we don't have Webb in there lurking either. The outside backs don't roam either. If you could get Watkins or Moon taking offloads up the middle of the pitch for example it would massively increase the threat of any front row. Like I said, you can deal with one guy running no matter how big and strong if you know that's all he's going to do.

Agree about Burrow also. He must now play 7, McGuire, as great as he has been, must be retired.
Get a top class hooker, use Aiton as a relief hooker for him (he does have the strength to defend in the middle).

I think the lack of offloads is more to do with lack of impact the forwards have on the defensive line. If they don't win the collission, its hard to offload. Most of our forwards hit the line slowly, and use leg drive to gain extra metres. We have a lot of grafters in our pack, and that works well in defense, but there is no-one really who threatens the line. Lets hope Cuthbertson adds this element

Totally agree. We need someone who'll hit the line with impact - that's what we're desperately lacking in both the forwards and the halves.

Anthony Tupou is out if contract at the Sharks - now he has had his injury issues, but when he is fit, he runs great lines, hits the ball up at a million miles an hour and has a fantastic offload game. He'd be a great addition to our pack and would give us something we've lacked since Ali left. He'd be a gamble due to his injuries, but he'd be relatively cheap at this stage of his career and the potential positives he'd bring would be massive.

I thought we won most collisions against Cas in the cup final - certainly in the fist half - and barely offloaded once. But I agree, the likes of Stevie Ward never win a collision on attack and I think if he did he would have the sort of skills that would show a great offloading game. Then again Delaney hits the line at a hundred miles an hour, has great leg drive, gets his body beyond the defender often but the ball is glued in his arms.
But offloads need support players and the culture that goes with it. We don't have either anymore.

Gets my backing. He's a very obvious answer to what we're very obviously lacking. But as DHM points out, there need to be a culture of backing up instilled as well.

Not for me.

Sinfield cant drop out to 60m. From a drop out Catalans would have been on the attack.

We just needed to play the ball away and kick.

People don't mind declaring when individual brilliance wins you a game. In this case an unforgiveable error costed us the game.

Not just the game, the season.

I don't agree with that, I cant see any situation in rl where dropping out is favourable to having a full set, if kicking the ball as far down field as you can is the aim then surely that should be done in play after five drives.

It was an unfortunate massive cock up, bad pass bad catch, it's over with now lets look forward to next year.