How else do you think someone gets better at something?

Sinfield's kicking wasn't as good when he took over as it has been in recent years. Did he suddenly develop more 'natural talent'?

He had the natural talent to start with and the skills were built on top of that - I could take all the driving lessons in the world but I would never be able to drive an F1 car as good as Lewis Hamilton - his natural ability is what sets him apart from the other drivers.

Practise plas a big part but you have to have some propensity to the skill to start with.

I think Sinfield has reached optimum performance regarding kicking, no doubt his devilish attention to detail and dedication has resulted in a top class place kicker. I also think Matty Smith has reached his optimum performance level, and no matter how hard he practices he will never reached standards attained by Sinfield. If you seriously think Wigan are prepared to compromise their whole season by not having a goal kicker practising the required hours, you may also be serious about Peacock being a potentially world class goal kicker.

That's a bit of a different thing. Being an F1 driver is an entire sport not a single skill. That is much more complicated involving many different aspects and skills. But needless to say, his practice (and quality of practice) is the differentiating factor between Hamilton and his opponents. Now, I'll say it again, he may find that practice (eg karting when he was younger), over decades and currently, easier or more enjoyable etc than other people meaning he has an advantage. But that's all it is, an advantage. Not a defining factor that means he was born with this amazing skill that only people with that skill can match.

I'll ask the question again, what part of kicking a ball off a cone would stop Jamie Peacock becoming a top goal kicker?
I can kick a goal from touch line and I'm ridiculously unfit. So it's not the physical act as, despite his age and the battering he must've taken over the years I'm pretty sure Peacock is still in better condition than I am. It's the consistency of the act. Which comes from lots and lots of practice. Which requires concentration and immense dedication. And a lot of time.

That's why there aren't many like Sinfield. There aren't many people willing to put the time in to do it.
When I say time, I'm talking years. In the context of an RL player it isn't easy to put that kind of time in. There are other things that could be trained on or prioritised instead, injury can get in the way, position at the club etc.

If you're in charge of Wakefield for instance do you commit one of your players to a lot of additional training, that you're not sure when it'll pay off, when you're never sure of keeping a player beyond a couple of years? Or do you either give them the time off so they're a bit fresher for games or get them to train on something else? Maybe a part of their game that's weak?
Not to mention clubs have to work with the skills of the players as they receive them and goal kicking is a skill that isn't taught very well at amateur level. And the mental skills involved in goal kicking aren't taught/encouraged at all (in general) at amateur level.

I'm struggling to think of many clubs who've been in Leeds position whereby they've been 99% certain that a player like Sinfield will definitely be with them for a long time.

I think he could be even better. But that's unlikely given the context he's in.
I definitely think Matty Smith could be better. I think some time with a quality kicking coach like Alred would help. As would a lot of extra practice. But as I've said before it's not easy to undertake that extra practice.



What are the required hours? I have no idea how long Smith practices goal kicking. Do you?
I do know if he practiced a lot more he'd get better at goal kicking. I don't see that as an outrageous statement to make.
If extra practice doesn't make any difference why did Leeds undertake lots of skills training when Tony Smith came in? Or this pre-season? Leading to our improved passing and offloading this season.
In terms of Matty Smith, maybe Wigan have decided he's doing enough training on goal kicking as they have lots and lots of other things to train?

Modern team sports are effectively about the balance of training. Too much strength compared to speed? Too much speed compared to agility? Too much passing compared to tackling? Too much tackling compared to defensive positioning? Etc etc.

This balance, and the long time it takes, is why many players and clubs don't commit to lots of extra training.

There is a saying around the world, "Practice makes perfect". There is a reason that saying is used daily, and used in all occurances. Him is correct to a degree.

However, me personally, I think goal kicking is highly reliant on state of mind rather than just a skill set.

I agree. Though I'd say that that state of mind is actually a skill set that can be taught/learnt/coached.

I don't know, but I'm willing to bet, that when Sinfield received coaching on his kicking from Alred, most of it was about things other than the physical act of kicking the ball. Id bet most of it was about the mental side of goal kicking.

Its true that practice makes perfect, but you need to have a natural ability and co-ordination to start with. To suggest that someone without those could achieve an 80% accuracy rate is laughable

Why? Those things can be taught. It just requires more practice/coaching than someone who already has those abilities.

It's not laughable at all. Kicking a ball is as easy as riding a bike. What you then need to add is co-ordination and as I said above the right mind set. Therefore practice and have the right focus can considerably improve your kicking accuracy.

I will give you an example of mind set, and this happens with all kickers. My young one, who doesn't regularly kick and doesn't practice no where near enough, can go to the field and kick for goal. Sometimes he will bang the first 20 in on the trot from all over the pitch. Then as soon as he misses one, the next 10 you can bet he will miss. A kicker needs to have their eye in, and then keep their mind focussed, rather than letting a miss effect them.

Take darts as another example, are people seriously suggesting that you are born with a natural skill set for darts? no you get great by practice and focus. Goal kicking is not much different to darts in reality.

So, there's nothing to stop you banging over those touchline specials into your 60s providing you keep practicing?

A feat I'm massively impressed by whatever the age of the kicker, btw. Only ever took one place kick in my entire rugby life. In front of the sticks it was.

It never reached the try line

Absolutely right, if I kept practicing, there's nothing to stop me.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not pretending I'm a good goal kicker, like you most of my attempts struggle to reach the try line! Just outlining that despite my appallingly bad physical condition, the physical act of kicking a goal can be done. So it's only consistency that is the issue.

Not only is Southstander full of people who believe they cn run the club better than Hetherington or coach the club better than McDermott it's bow full of people who think they can kick goals as accurately as one of the all time greats in the game.

Tremendous.

Really? Who's said that?

Wigan coach Shaun Wane has taken the unusual approach of enlisting the help of a RL forum contributor to solve his clubs goal kicking problems. After Matty Smith again cost his side with some wayward conversions, Wane took immediate action.
" We heard there was a kicking guru giving out some pretty useful advice on a Leeds fans forum so we've got him on board. Apparently it's all down to practice, that's where we've been going wrong for the last couple of years. We made contact with the guy and he starts on Monday. Matty will benefit from his input. There's nothing scientific going on, just practice, simple as that".
When asked why the club had not picked up on the simple answer to his clubs woes Wane said,
"Sometimes there's no magic formula, it was there staring us all in the face. We won't be making that mistake again"

Plenty of valid opinions and questions asked G do you not think we should have recruited better or that Mc.D isn't "untouchable" wrt selections/rotations and tactics?

Whatever you do, don't give a negative opinion or Printer/Juan/loiner81 will come get you while you sleep.

So it's magic that makes the likes Sinfield & Wilkinson such good goal kickers? Not practice?
Are you ever going to actually make some kind of counter-argument and debate the subject like a grown up or just make stupid, childish comments?

A quote from a kicking coach:
"...it takes work. And some players, particularly backs, would want to look at other parts of their game....The players don't want to stay behind and learn it."

You're showing all the traits of someone to deep into a debate that they're hopelessly losing. You may also have selective amnesia, happily disregarding my counter arguments that I've made throughout this debate. I injected a bit of humour that you obviously didn't appreciate, I think you may also suffer from "small man" syndrome. As for your recycled quote from a "kicking coach", it's a bit of a lame response and adds no credence to your hopeless argument. Anyway, if you like quotes here's one from Shaun Wane this week regarding Smiths poor kicking that shows no sign of improving,
"He keeps working on it, and as long as he does I'm satisfied."
So there you have it, he's practising hard, his coach is happy that he's practising hard, and we still have the same outcome, he is sh**e. Over to you guru, dig yourself a bit deeper.

You could've just said "No I'll continue to act like a small child".

How much does Smith practice? With whom? Does he have someone (eg a kicking coach) to help analyse flaws in his technique or approach? Obviously Wane is happy with what he currently has. That's up to Wane. He may prioritise, for instance, better defence, attacking structure or more work on a short kicking game from his one and only established half back at Wigan.

How can a quote regarding improving kicking quality from Dave Alred on a thread regarding how to improve kicking be lame and adds no credence?

Again, if you disagree, make an actual argument as to why instead of just saying it's not possible over and over again.

"Can we keep this one? I just love the deluded naivety of this one. He's like a new puppy walking into walls. Please can we keep him ? I promise I'll look after him.
" Awwww he's so cute when he tries to get angry ! He's like scrappy do !

Pretty childish comments don't you agree ? Or are you a hypocrite as well as a bully ? You made the above comments during the last few days towards a contributor on the Virtual Terrace, and then have the brass neck to say I act like a small child. Which way do you want to play it ? Do you want the banter, or do you want to be a straight member without the banter ? Seems to me you turned into a drama queen when I had a little laugh at your expense, and that's when you don't like the banter, that's when it's "childish". As I have already pointed out to you, over the 8 pages of this topic I have made numerous contributions, all but one have been rational and respectful, if you choose to disregard them and continue to cry about the one where I was tongue in cheek, you will continue to make yourself look like a big baby.
If you seriously think Shaun Wane has not explored every avenue to improve Matty Smiths kicking while it is costing them trophies you must be deluded. When you ask who Wigan have as kicking coach, it is none other than Mr Paul Deacon, one of the best kickers of the modern era. He could probably teach your Dave Alred a thing or two in fairness. As for your theory that continual practice could even make Jamie Peacock a world class kicker, it's total bunkum. Some people don't have the natural physical strength, rhythm or mental strength to achieve such levels. A case in point would be Matty Smith versus Pat Richards, the last two Wigan kickers. Pat Richards is a stronger kicker of the ball, far stronger than Matty Smith could ever be. Tell me how any coach could give Matty Smith an extra 20 yards on his kicks, it is just physically impossible, Matty Smith is smaller,weaker and could never generate the distance of the bigger, stronger man. That immediately rules out Smith ever kicking the long distance kicks Richards could achieve. It also compromises Smiths angle from touch line conversions, he has to take the tighter angle due to the lack of natural power he generates, whereas Richards gives himself the bigger target to aim at due to being able to take the ball further away thus enhancing the angle. They are facts, and nothing that you or Dave Alred say will ever change that. "Practice makes perfect" is simply not true in some cases, if it were I would be making millions every year by throwing darts at a board from a few feet. The board is in the same place, the oche never moves, weather conditions don't come into play, and physical strength is not a pre requisite. The reason why I have not become a millionaire by mastering the easiest sport to play is because I don't have the necessary skill level required, there happens to be a small bunch of people that can do it better than everyone else no matter how much we practice.
Over to you.

To be fair to Smith, he has his complete game to concentrate on vastly improving.

When do you reckon he'll make a start?

Your initial reply to my point was laden with sarcasm and since then has included numerous sarcastic references such as "kicking guru". Why is that? Is it because you won't argue the actual point being discussed?
It would appear that way as you didn't respond to my reply to you and then just posted a paragraph trying to take the p!ss but all it has done has prove you have understood at all what I've been saying.


No they haven't. In fact only 1 has. But hey I suppose I could always threaten legal action when someone calls me a name eh?


Rational & respectful eh?
I have no doubt that Shaun Wane is doing everything he and the entire coaching team thinks is best to make Matty Smith the best player possible for Wigan. Will you ignore this point, again?


"My" Dave Alred? You haven't a clue who he is or his reputation in sport do you? That you dismiss both a quote from him regarding improving kicking quality and dismiss him in favour of Paul Deacon is frankly staggering.


Once again, those issues can be practiced and improved significantly over time. But did you just suggest that Jamie Peacock doesn't have enough physical or mental strength? Seriously?



Why? Strength can be increased? To diagnose Matty Smith's issues as a kicker would require a full analysis of his kicking which obviously neither of us can or are equipped to do. But what makes you think working on issues such as leg, foot or ankle strength, his run up, his body position, his leg/quad movements etc wouldn't result in significant improvement? And that's just physical issues.
You keep taking the p!ss calling me a "kicking guru" because I think players can improve their kicking. Yet you are making a similar assumption on their ability by saying they can't. So which is it?


So, are you saying that the likes of Barney and Phil Taylor are naturally gifted to play darts? You think it's just co-incidence they spent a hell of a long time in a pub? It's a strange world you live in where you think that the top people in every single field are only the people with some kind of gift of birth. Especially at sports and actions that were invented after these people were born.

The point that you are continually choosing to ignore over and over again is this:
Some people find things easier than others. But dedication to training and perfecting those things is virtually always the defining difference between top sportspeople/athletes than their competitors, not some kind of natural gift.
If Matty Smith had put in anywhere near the same amount and quality of practice as Kevin Sinfield then (I suspect) he still wouldn't be quite as good as Sinfield at goal kicking. That's because in my view Sinfield has a superior mentality. However if Smith had put in significant additional practice, including on his mentality, he could eventually be just as good.
There are lots and lots of valid reasons as to why Smith didn't put the same amount and quality of practice in as Sinfield. Coming to the game later, no certainty of club future, different priorities etc. but that amount and quality of practice from Sinfield (ie his dedication) is the defining difference between his and Smith's goal kicking.

I'm very happy with him as he is. As long as he is nowhere near the England squad.