Exactly.

The debate on here has been one of the best on any of the Forums, with well constructed and genuine views being exchanged. As an Agnostic, whilst not converted by kirkstaller's opinions, I thought he put his personal beliefs over particularly well, and in a reasoned and fairly compassionate way.

As did Tyke, until her final paragraph.

Excellent post .... And I even make a cameo appearance



However, I do agree with others that nobody should be censored for well meaning but ridiculous opinions. An open forum is the best way to tackle misguided people. Unfortunately I suspect Kirkstaller is one of those pious bluddy minded individuals who will never deviate from th their position regardless of the strength of a good riposte .. It will simply shatter the whole basis to the meaning of their life and their perceived reward of a better after life

What age are you in heaven by the way ? Do babies who die stay babies ? at the rapture are all that rise from their graves to be judged already in heaven or hell ?? For paradise and eternal happiness does there not have to be some misery to appreciate the concept of happiness ? Will it not get a little boring ? I was brought up a catholic. I am now a committed atheist/humanist.

Tyke's/Rhinos No. 1 Fan, you make some eloquent arguments, but I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. I think this thread has run it's natural course, but, for the sake of clarity, I'd like to correct the way you seem to have misrepresented my faith. I'll keep this relatively short and polite



May I also thank McF for respecting freedom of speech on both sides of the debate.



The Bible is, in my view, quite clear that homosexual acts are sinful. We can argue all day about whether that is true or not, but for the sake of argument, let's say that it is true. The Bible also tells us to resist temptation and to live a holy life. That may be very hard for people in your position, I accept that, but that is what I believe God tells us to do.



God didn't make you gay. Protestant theology dictates that man chose to rebel against God. This started in Eden and continues to this day - we have all inherited Adam's original sin. I believe that we all rebel against God - even Christians - and for that we must be punished. The Bible tells us that the punishment we deserve is eternal separation from God in Hell.

I'm as much of a sinner as you, and I don't have the right to judge you. I deserve Hell just as much as you do. I commit sins - I have lied, cheated and worse - but I have placed my faith in Jesus. He took the punishment for us.



I understand it's hard, I really do, but for the reasons I've outlined above I believe that it is what makes God happy.



I've said in a previous post that OT law no longer applies to us. I do however draw on the NT and a holitstic approach to scripture to form my views on marriage.

Hang on, so you are saying been hmoosexual is not the same as being black, asian or of any other creed? People are born the way they are, end of. Its not a life choice, its the way you are programmed.




heres one for you, I dont believe there is such a thing as god, i think its a big lie brought about to control the way people thought and acted hundreds of years ago. people say there is no such things as alien life forms, ghosts etc because we have no proof. Show me the proof that god exists. You cant apart from a book that was written many centuries after a supposed event occured.

There is a degree of choice with regard to the practice of sexual predilection though, if not with regard to the predilection itself. There is zero degree of choice with regard to race or skin colour.

Jacko had a good go.

I say respect other people's believes and that people can believe in what they choose to.

What I am against are people preaching their beliefs for the sole purpose of insighting hatred and attempting to convert others to your way of thinking.

I myself am Roman Catholic and I say leave people be, to live their lives as they choose.

Whatever our personal opinions the fundamental question is why do people belleve the bible .... Or the koran .... Or any other " holy book " ? There is no empirical proof that any of them were conceived of by any god... they're accepting the word of other men from ancient times that this is so. And different men interpret scripture in different ways. Followers then choose which version they choose to believe or are taught or are compelled to believe ( what choice do Afghan women in remote tribal areas have for example ?? ).

Why believe ?? Is it that you WANT to believe in a god ? Why ?

Because Christians Choose to Believe, like you Choose to Believe in Nothing Religious.

Like I said earlier.....Let people believe in what they want instead of wanting everyone to believe in what you believe in.

Simple really.

Oh.

You owe me a new monitor - I just covered the last one in coffee at the idea of a Roman Catholic advocating religious tolerance, given Catholicism's historical "issues" with non-believers.

I was expressing my personal views on people's beliefs.

Lots of Religious Institutions have Dark Pasts as do many Countries due to Leaders and/or Political Institutions.

[uHistorical[/u is a key word in your Statement.

Who's this "God" person you refer to?

Anyway, isn't a phobia a fear? Surely we're not campaigning against people being afraid of gay people are we?

Since religion is a manmade institution, elements of both are true as to what you think. If there is a god and you believe it good for you just dont force you view on me. if you are an atheist then bully for and thanks for sharing it with me i can sleep easy

it comes down to your own morality. We may not agree with Kirkstaller but they are his own views that people who try to take the moral high ground force into the shadows. for every poster on here you have all sinned in one form of another that may go against someone elses beliefs such as bullying, road rage,smokers,the jones next door,pornography, theft,hatred,meat is murder,global warming,jealousy,fatism,racism,buggery,tribal loyalty, resentment, personally held beliefs,habits,hygiene the list is endless it has happend on this site where you disagree with what a poster has put. you may think it is right but others dont but in the dark in the quiet when no one else knows no one can cast judgement you act upon those but you dare not share it with people who think and feel differently for you know you face certain ridicule.

why should he banned just because you say his view is biggoted. i say ban you for not allowing him to have his say in what he feels as you feel you are the fascist police i hate. Its people like you who foster the killing and stagnation of any debate and differing veiws that may move the attitude forward and seek an outcome You should be allowed to feel and think what you like just dont speak for my view, dont foster your view on me let me debate and if you dont like the reply you like dont start spouting off but you also must be prepared to deal with any consequenses that come your way. whether it is legal moral or any form of retribution. If you dont like what others think and say then debate it and argue it but FFS move on.

I just enjoy the sparring on the forum the Angry of Leeds letter in the paper it makes me smile

Ah yes, what a weekend that was...

i have seen your home made dvd of it andy

you mucky pup

Yes you did when you said:





How are you defining marriage?

Go sit in the corner with the dunces cap on.

If God didn't make him gay, who or what did?
You see, it sounds like you are now saying that [ubeing[/u gay is a choice, whereas earlier you seemed to be saying that having gay sex was the choice.

Reminds me of the weekend I tried S&M, necrophilia and bestiality............until I realised I was flogging a dead horse.








[size=85Ladies and gentlemen, please put your hands together for the seventh annual outing of the "flogging a dead horse joke".[/size

It may be just my vivid imagination, but I'm drawing comparisons with posters on this thread and characters in the film Seven.....

When I heard Morgan Freeman was given head at the end of the film imagine my disappointment when I went to the cinema with a box of tissues.

Only ONE box of tissues ? I'm disappointed with you G1 ...

Religion is a very personal thing and how it impacts on us all is largely down to fate. Which country, family or even street you were brought up in determines what you may or may not believe. Some accept everything they have been told without doubt while others start to question certain aspects and disagree with other aspects until they have totally outgrown it. Each man to his own.

Different people talk of their version of God as the one true God. (Is arrogance a sin?) Perhaps the reason for this is that all the religious scriptures (records) were written by man and not a God therefore they are almost certain to contain many errors and prejudices. They were also mostly not recorded at the time and due to translations and politics etc have questionable prominence.

If Christians had fully accepted the written word then they would all still be Roman Catholics. The fact that there has been so much diversity in this one religion over the years is due to man’s often corrupt and convenient interpretation of the scriptures to suit his particular needs at the time.. The CofE was founded because divorce was not allowed in the Christian Church plus of course a desire for more power. Think of how many sects there are in the USA each who quote the Bible as justification of very narrow views on life.

So to believe that every single word or idea written in your particular version of the Bible, Torah, Koran, Vendas, Dhammapada or whatever, is correct and has to be observed is very dangerous as it can lead to religious extremism which as we all know has been the cause of so many wars over the centuries.

Science has also proved many things to be different from what the scriptures say for example evolution. But what is clear is that if God made man he also gave him a brain with the ability to reason, question and think things out for himself.

I was brought up a Catholic but with parents that encouraged open discussion. As I matured I started to realize that there were different aspects that I could not accept. I suppose I first realized I had started to lapse when I stopped feeling guilty about buying a packet of 3 at the barbers!

So I say any religion is ok if you believe in it. If you want to go to church every Sunday that’s ok or if you prefer to dance naked around a fire in the woods thats also ok. How you behave is your own business. How others behave is their’s. Live and let live.

Kirkstaller is entitled to his views, which on this subject I have to disagree, but I think the fact that he chose Sir Humphrey for his avatar would rather indicate he is not homophobic.

Maybe this version of the film would see a severed penis or even a bottom delivered to mr freeman.