Of course I will, because they will BE champions. It cannot be argued either way. The team that wins the Grand Final ARE the Champions. This is fact. END OF.

Do you think the Australians hold such an obsession about where their champions finish the season?

I personally hope a team from 8th wins it. I'd like every team that enters the playoffs to do so with the goal if winning it and not just making up the numbers. I'd like the playoffs to become an intense competition in their own right rather than just a formality to whittle down the numbers to the top two playing each other in the Grand Final.

It's perfectly fair as was the old first past the post system, as was the even older top sixteen play-off system, as was whatever preceded that system just so long as before a ball is kicked in any given year the rules for becoming Champions are left unaltered for the duration of the campaign.

The League Leaders Shield is worth something to some - me included - but no doubt means little to some others but although I rate it as a worthwhile achievement it still doesn't greatly devalue the ultimate title of Champions as decided via the Play-Offs.



A number of the ones they failed to perform well in and no the fans cannot have their money back - in any circumstance as that would be to admit to failings - which will never happen.

Like I said "better" is subjective but if you want my opinion it was us because Champions is a bigger prize than Cup Winners.

I get you. Well argued. But it's not "end of" is it? It is in Football Cos Man U beat everyone else but in RL it's still open to debate WHO THE BEST TEAM ARE not who the Champions are.

I watch every Wigan game home and away, love Rugby League (came over for the WCC) and winning and losing means something to me.

Do you even bother going to the game? It sounds like you aren't much bothered about Leeds form during the season one way or the other. Maybe that's why attendances are down all over the country, nobody is bothered any more. Apart from the playoffs and GF. Actually have you seen the attendances at the playoffs? So it's just the GF then.

I have been a season ticket holder for several years. Our home displays under McDermott have troubled me and I have complained about them. It annoys me when we lose 9though not as much as it used to) and I enjoy it when we win. I think I'd probably prefer in order
1. A decent game with a Leeds win
2. A decent game
3. A Leeds win

However none of that has devalued either championship won. Like I said, I found 2011 (from fifth) very satisfying.

That said, I started watching Leeds regularly in the 1980s so these last two fifth place finishes have some perspective for me.

Sounds a bit risky to me. Planning to peak for one match in the season. So Leeds weren't at their peak in the Challenge Cup final then? That was just a warm up for the Playoffs?

Just on a side issue do you think Sir Kev is planning to peak for the GF or the World Cup? Hope he doesn't get it wrong. Too much peaking in one season could play havoc with your plans.

The golden boot winner and world's best player peaks when he wants.

Finally I think we agree!!! I remember watching Wigan in the second division and you certainly appreciate the good times!

Of course winning from fifth is satisfying. But I would argue that your previous wins were more deserved. When we won from first in 2010 I knew we deserved it, no arguments. I couldn't stomach a team winning it from eighth. It makes RL look foolish.

Enough about Cameron Smith, what about Sir Kev?

2010 Wigan won from 1st,but if not for Leeds horrendous injuries all season they would have walked SL .That is my honest opinion.Wigan were fortunate that year

No it makes the RFL, pampering to the Sky broadcast requirements and inventing more convoluted play-off rules and opportunities to televise more games for the sole rights fee, look foolish.

Agreed.

Completely.

And I suppose - "end of"!!!!

The only poeple who would look foolish would be the ones in the 7 other playoff teams who bottled when it really mattered.

Although I still don't like the system as it is.

Jeez grapes are sour in Leeds, Wigan best team in SL at present by a country mile

Since it's one game apiece this season - and the winning margin was the same each time - I think Wigan's grapes must be heavily fermented.

are you really that thick or are you just pretending?
after all of the reasoned debate posted prior to your arrival on the scene you then posted this




no 5hit sherlock!
we all couldn't agree with you more and wigan are without a doubt the best side in sl by a country mile at present,but sadly for that present accolade you don't pick up any trophies for being so dominant.

but then again being a giants fan i suppose you have grasped that concept by now

If you could be as specific as to peak for 80mins out of a whole year you would probably earn millions. But it doesnt quite work like that does it. Not being at the peak during the challenge cup final doesnt mean it is a warm up.

Sorry, just being facetious.

My point is that of course Leeds were trying their damndest in the Challenge Cup Final. I'm not too up on the latest Sports Science but training to peak at the end of the season to win the GF doesn't seem that difficult to work out. Surely every team tries to do that. I would argue that there are other factors that come into play here. And luck is one of them.

I just want one Leeds fan to admit that luck played a part as well as the play off system in your success of the past two seasons.

Luck tends to even out over the course of a league campaign but can have too big an effect in a cup competition. (Look at Wigan Athletic for heavens sake!!!)

Winning once from 5th may have an element of luck in it but to do it twice dispels that theory. 6 from 9 reinforces the premiss that luck has nothing to do with it at all.

It's like saying "Wigans 80's/90's winning steak sure was lucky wasn't it?"

I'm not saying that it is ALL luck am I?

There are elements of luck in ALL cup competitions. You don't play everyone home and away for a start. The competition involves only 4 games to win it.

Winning twice from 5th doesn't dispel any theory. Haven't you thought that coming 5th had advantages over coming 3rd or 4th? You had a nice easy game against the 8th team last year actually Wakey came 9th. Then you play the team that just got battered the previous week so is low on confidence.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you were lucky to win it, but you have to agree that there was an ELEMENT of luck in your campaign.

Rugby League in the 80s/90s was different in that really only Widnes were a comparable team to Wigan who generally didn't need much luck, whereas there are about half a dozen decent teams now.

Theories abound, but I don't for a moment believe that it's a question of not trying in the Cup Final or indeed the weekly rounds. I think it's a question of how close to your peak preparation you are.

For instance, if you're trying to peak in September, it is entirely plausible (in my eyes) that you might be over-trained in August. It won't be huge differences, but small things make a big difference in professional sport.

You allude to the formula being easy. Yet other teams can't seem to pull it off, and even Shaun Wane admitted to having it wrong last year.

If you can point to significant, unmatched and decisive good fortune in either the '11 or '12 Grand Final wins go ahead. But we looked a different side in the last two matches of each season, and both years we produced our best performances at Old Trafford. I can't see that being coincidence.

As I say, theories abound. Two years isn't a lot of data to go on and there might be other explanations. I haven't seen another that compels me.

Coming 5th has many advantages, to the point that some posters one here believe that the 5th spot was targeted and achieved deliberately - no luck involved at all.

A theory, incidentally, which I still personally believe to be (in the words of Professor Yaffle) fiddlesticks and flapdoodle.

Leeds deliberate capitulation away at Catalan Dragons in Round 25 last season prior to staging a "score-at-will" late rally would suggest otherwise. It pretty much ensured that Catalan finished 4th and Leeds finished 5th.

Feel free to investigate whether lightning never ever strikes twice though.

Only one of the last five NRL Champions were minor premiers. Do you think Australian fans care about that?