There are any number of socio-economic reasons for the decline in RL from Thatcher's destruction of historical northern industries to the advent of professional rugby union. Even in those days the big clubs like Leeds and wigan were pushing themsevse to the brink of extinction. RL knew it was facing problems and jumped on the Sky ark to save itself from the rising waters.
Unfortunately at every hands turn the member clubs, who effectively agree any changes to SL, then try their best to undermine those rules that they agreed to in anyway they can through their own shortsightedness, from salary cap breaches to overseas player loopholes.

IMO the problems that we have come way before SL and the advent of summer rugby but the legacy that those actions left meant that SL became an inferior product. I believe that even if SL and summer rugby had not arrived RL would still be in as bad a state, if not worse.

I bet you were perusing the LS Lowry gallery humming the Hovis Bread theme tune whilst imagining cobbled streets before you wrote that nonsense. I wasn't aware that it was Super League standards which improved turf technology and quality, though even a cursory glance at Headingley's pitch during the SL era is one of potholes, lumps and copious amounts of sand... a far cry from the pre-SL days when the Headingley pitch could have staged bowling, croquet or lawn tennis and give the All England Club a run for their money

Funnuly enough, lots of soccer grounds were mudbaths (Baseball Ground, Stamford Bridge anyone?) yet the soccer pitches have since improved despite still playing in winter.

Pssst! RL is a winter sport and the only reason it was originally switched to summer was to provide a TV schedule filler for Sky Sports. I doubt this applies any longer or is even important to Sky. It had nothing to do whatsoever with appeasing fans who didn't like the cold and who preferred short-sleeve weather otherwise we wouldn't still be freezing on the terraces or in the seats in February, March and November!

I also appreciate the higher levels of skill on show pre-SL where we produced halfbacks with brains, skill, nous and a kicking game as opposed to all the android biff and barge, dummy half scooting games we have today in wide open spaces - a pitiful attempt to mimic the Australian game but without any of the skill.


I prefer proper international tours taking place at more appropriate times of the year and that would involve a switch back to the winter sport that RL naturally is. Summer is for cricket, tennis and holidays.

The evidence says the opposite, and if you knew anyone who worked in junior rugby at all you would know that kids dont want to be playing in cold freezing weather, if you take even a cursory glance at the massive increase in attendence you would see a direct correlation with the change to summer. Now you clearly dont think the product we are offering is better, and the marketing in RL is almost uniformly poor, so why have we seen such an increase in attendances during the summer era if people dont care whether they watch in summer or winter?

If defenders arent good enough to defend against quick players i see know reason to give them a helping hand. Those half-backs were also playing against some pretty poor standard athletes, ones which were barely fitter than your average pub side prop, its much easier to look good against an overweight plodder than it is a professional athlete. The evidence has shown that more people will watch summer RL than winter, with quicker play and all.
this isnt even logical, considering the fact that the southern hemisphere seasons oppose ours, whichever time of year we choose to play it, it will be summer somewhere. If we play in the English winter, when the tour is returned we play in the Australian summer, if we play in the Australian winter we play in the English summer. It would be silly to argue that RL is naturally a winter game that you want to see played in winter so you can go over and watch a tour in the Australian summer.

That's part of it, but we also no longer attract all the top *domestic* players in their prime. Look at your better period, from 1988-1994, and if the player pool was transported to today then Offiah and Davies certainly wouldn't have been available to us, and also Edwards, Lydon, Betts, Connolly, even Hanley would more likely have been playing RU than RL.

If there's even an ounce of truth in that, it might explain why not one single SL-produced player of the modern era has scaled the heights of being a world class player and made their mark on the international stage. Players don't become world class with softcock attitudes towards the weather.


Players like Deryck Fox and Kevin Dick would have run riot in the domestic game under the 10 metre helping-hand rule.


Aye, Kevin Ward, Lee Crooks, Brian Lockwood, Bill Ashurst, Terry Clawson, Mal Reilly, Jim Mills, Cliff Watson, et al were all bloody rubbish and fat back in't day laark. Not like today's magnificent physical specimens getting their international @rses handed to them with increasing regularity.


What illogical planet are you on Captain Smokey? When we used to undergo proper international tours, they were always played during the winter season whether that be in the UK or down under. Aussies and Kiwis toured here in Oct/Nov and we toured over there in June/July. Guess what? It worked.

Plenty have, we have good players, we have some world class players, we have players like Gareth Ellis, Sam Burgess, James Graham who are doing very very well in Australia, and very good young players like Ryan Hall and Sam Tomkins who are the equal of any player in their position for their age in RL.

We aren’t as good as a team or as a squad as the Australians and probably the kiwis at the moment, but it would be very naïve for that to extend to a belief that we are inferior man for man in every position. I would say that if every Australian, in every position was superior to every british player in every position then the Aussies are massively under-performing.

And players like Hall, Graham, Roby, Tomkins, would never have needed to get out of second gear playing against players whose speed, strength and fitness don’t even get close

They were players of their time, when the game could carry people who weren’t professional enough to make best use of their natural talent.

Really? The clear and obvious reasons why a tour in the middle of the home nations season would be unworkable in the modern era weren’t immediately obvious to you?

William,

There were a lot of cold winters in deserted stadiums in the period preceding Sl dating back to the last time GB won a series against the Aussies.

You;re looking back through Rose tinted glasses. For every Andy Gregory there were plenty of ray Ashtons.

As for your suggestion that Aussies on guest stints during a winter season would improve the state of our game then I'd beg to differ. I watched Craig Coleman and Mark Laurie go home when the business end of the season came around and David Cruikshank and Cavill heugh took their place. I also remember Saints flying Fatty vautin and Michael O'Connor back for a Challenge Cup Final appearances. That improved the quality of Saints display.....

None of those players are world class. Ellis and Graham are solid, Hall can finish but concedes as many due to defensive ineptitude, Tomkins and Burgess have the potential to become world class. They aren't there yet.


I doubt the Aussies will be losing much sleep over under-performance when they've won 23 out of 27 during the SL era, a not-insignificant number by blowout and record scorelines.


They rarely have had to get out of second gear throughout the vast majority of their SL careers... and that's the problem right there.


Careful. That interchange bench might tire out all those modern players which you hoist on to that SL pedestal of yours.


Yet another insecure SL supporter who spends most of their time worrying about what other sports are getting up to as opposed to what the sport can proactively do in order to benefit the game as a whole. That would include having the confidence to showcase your own events at the most feasible time in the calendar and that means a switch back to a winter season, providing the most appropriate window of opportunity for proper international tours and fixtures to take place.

Meninga became a legend at Saints, as did Kenny & Ferguson at Wigan, Sterlo at Hull, etc. But thanks for the selective memory negatives in order to push a one-eyed club-based agenda however. It'll always be the international game over club for me any day of the week. You may wax lyrical about the Rhinos team since 2004 as much as you like but none of those players have been effective at international level and the SL competition is a joke.

I'm more interested in the benefits accruing from more of our players employed on guest stints down under particularly during the 60's, and definitely during the late 80's and early 90's. Then there's also the experience of our players facing the likes of Miles, Meninga, Lewis et al during their guest stints in the UK. The benefits for the national side were proven during that period.

I don't give a flying youknowwhat that Leeds are SL champions when they then prove their worthlessness by getting hammered soon after against real quality opposition by scorelines such as 52-4. Others choose not to be interested so they may maintain their starry-eyed admiration for their respective Super League champion players and clubs. Not alluding to anyone in particular there of course

Hall is as good as any Australian winger, they aren’t particularly outstanding, any league where Manu Vatuvai can be a stand out winger isn’t blessed with an abundance of talent, The Fijian ringer the Aussies had drafted in isn’t anything more than solid defensively and under the bomb. Hall, if he were Australian would be knocking on the door of the Australian test squad if he wasn’t in it. There are players in the Kiwi and Australian squads who are no more than ‘solid’ the likes of Tamou, Lewis, Gillett aren’t a step above Graham or Ellis. Roby, whilst not Cam Smith is on a level with anyone else. Tomkins and Burgess do have the potential, as do other players

That being the case i would be disappointed with their lack of professionalism.
It certainly is, it is certainly a big part of the problem.
It’s a lot more tiring to tackle a modern day prop running it in from ten yards than to pull down some fat plodder running through treacle and without a head of steam.
What have other sports got to do with anything?

Its fairly clear to anyone who wants to actually think about it rather than respond with their pre-determined insults the issues we, as a sport, would have with trying to put on a tour in the middle of a professional sports season.

Even if tours were introduced it wouldn't help the game grow too much, just satisfy those who remember back to the 70's and 80's. In today's sporting world you can't only have just 3 proper teams at International level and expect it to be taken too seriously especially when England/GB will usually lose (which will still be the case no matter what format or changes we make because RL simply isn't as big over here and will never match how big it is over in Aus). The reason RU is bigger is how many proper teams they have at International level, can you imagine if they only had ENG/NZ/AUS, the 6 Nations wouldn't be around for a start.

And American Football shows that an International scene isn't a must to be able to succeed.

Aside from North American sports: Aussie Rules, Gaelic football, Sumo wrestling.....I'm sure there are others. Basketball remains very popular in many countries despite those countries not being at all close to the US standard at the sport.

Our obsession with our international results vs one country as a measure of the sport, rather than so many other possible measures, is bizarre.

I would say that the number of people watching the game improving year on year and the increase of people playing across the country shows the game is doing well and the move to summer was positive.
International competition is a good thing to aim for but without the underlying structures below it won't be achievable.

Rubbish.All these players mentioned are world class.I would have thought the definition of World class was being able to walk into the majority of sides in the world,which is what all these players would.Ellis and Graham just 'solid'? Ive watched lots of NRL over last few years and both players have had a huge impact at their respective clubs, JG is in his first season and has become integral in the Bulldogs push to the top of the premiership.



It could also be argued that during this period GB were fortunate to have several of its all time greats around at the same time.Schofield,Offiah,Hanley and Robinson (maybe just after this period granted) and also had access to a non pro Union game which saw a certain Jonathan Davies come in and do some damage at international level.

Yet,we still didnt get a series victory over them despite this 'glory' period.I really cant see how you can atribute the likes of Meninga and lewis playing a handful of games in the early 80's and Miles playing 1 season(albeit a good one) in the twilight of his career as a proven reason as to why we competed for a couple of series.

Granted Hall isn't the best defensive winger ever, but if Offiah was playing today would he be? Would he also run the ball in a lot just like a forward on the first tackle whilst the real forwards are making their way back giving them a much needed breather?

Correct.

Hall isnt the best defensive winger in the world but certainly isnt the worst.His finishing ability alone would walk him into most sides and,as you say his graft bringing the ball back can be invalubale.

Excellent swerve there but I merely doubted your assertion that short term guest stints by Aussies during winter rugby was the way to uncrease our standards. So, leaving aside your Gotcha-esque fog knitting and attempt at fudging your weak point I'll keep on subject.

People fondly remember the English stints of Kenny and Sterling. But for all those ther were more Sam Backos, Fatty Vautins or Gary Belchers who offered nothing to our game and took plenty during their jollies. Even the great Wally Lewis boosted his bank balance with a stint at Wakefield. How many of the Wakefield players that played alongside him went on to dominate the Aussies?

If a short spell playing alongside the Aussies is really the answer why have you been so derisory about the international credentials of Ellis and Morley who spent quite some time playing alongside Aussies in their competition?

I don't know if anyone knows or cares. But the RFL made all its Rugby League schools development officers redundant to save money, except in Cumbria. They made the coaching coordinators redundant. I know this because I need to get my level two signed off and nobody is qualified to do it anymore. We can't get coaches into the amateur game properly. What bloody hope have we got?

Not here (the whole of the Midlands) they didn't.

From what I know they've got rid of a few and a lot more are fearing for their jobs (but haven't gone yet) because there is uncertainty over Sport England funding, apparently the participation numbers have fallen by quite a lot and so the funding is under threat. Although I have issues with how the participation numbers are done.

He isn't as good as Tate, Boyd, Morris, Uate or Yowheh.


Hall must therefore be less so then.


I wasn't aware Vatuvei was a standout winger in the NRL. He's a big unit who is entertaining and can show flashes of brilliance on his day but his game is prone to way too many errors. He has a real problem with ball control. Looks the flat-track bully part against inferior opposition which might explain his 4-try performance in the 2008 World Cup against England when he destroyed and embarrassed the Harry Sunderland Trophy winner from the SL Grand Final played less than two months earlier.


I'm pretty sure that [iFijian ringer[/i as you refer to him moved to Australia as a young teenager, was introduced to and played all his rugby league in Australia and was developed and nurtured via their junior/youth systems. This might explain his appearances for the Australian Schoolboys before turning professional.


Probably not but he's far more effective in plenty of other areas.


No, really.


Luke Lewis is way better than any player England has at their disposal. Tamou and Gillett are yet to establish themselves IMO. Smith is way ahead of any player at hooker. Roby would struggle to make all those scoot scoot metres from dummy half in the NRL like he does with such ease in SL.


We agree on something finally




They have an interchange bench to put their feet up after those tiring 10 to 20 minute stints.

Gareth Ellis is as similarly solid for the Tigers as Chris Heighington is. James Graham is as similarly solid for the Bulldogs as Aiden Tolman is. Neither Heighington or Tolman are world class either. They are both solid NRL pros.


One would assume that the full-time professional era of Super League ought to have produced several world class players but it has failed to produce any. We have to go back to the semi-professional era to recall the last time we produced any. We were more competitive against Australia prior to Super League and we were better than New Zealand.


I attributed a lot more reasons than that. I attributed all the opportunities for our players back then to engage in guest stints down under along with top class overseas players guesting in our competition as one of the reasons we were more competitive in the international arena, along with organised full tours at home and abroad. Almost all of our international players circa 1988-94 had experience of playing in the Australian competition. They also faced top quality Aussies and Kiwis in our domestic competition.

Today, we lack the international experience as our domestic competition runs almost in sync with the NRL. Consequently, the opportunities for our best players to play against the very best players in the world are limited. Playing with and against the likes of Kylie, Delaney, Webb, Finch, Lima, Carmont, Monaghan, Hodgson, Puletua, Laffranchi, Withers, Millard, Menzies, Lestrange, Meli, Moon et al week in, week out, ain't going to improve our international prospects anytime soon.

Our sport is in the midst of a very ordinary era which has lasted for over 16 years.

Have either Morley or Ellis ever justified their alleged world class credentials on the international stage whilst playing for GB or England? My opinion is they've both failed to live up to the hype throughout.

The RFL are way too busy blowing cash instead on failed and bankrupt SL franchises in order to justify their SL franchising dogma.

Are they going to pay the wages of the other 13 Super league clubs this week too. its all bull-s-hit