We've all said the attack needs to be better so it isn't exactly your lone crusade you make out.

Btw the Wigan team you admire so much scored just 8 points against the same team a few days ago.

Wide attacking play rarely comes into contention when finals are played as it's usually a much tighter nervous affair. And whatever experience Powell has that you think will help Cas, both McDermott, Smith and their players have much much more. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Kevin Brown is properly fit that Widnes might upset Cas next week.

Neither have Wigan, Saints, Warrington, or Cas either played their full strength for weeks.

And whilst we might have shown we can beat those teams earlier in year, we have also not beaten them since in other games.

They might have played the same team. But I doubt Bradford played as bad against them as they did us. They were absolutely woeful last night. That is why people are getting some realism about us.

Some people have really short memories, probably the same ones who were calling for the coach's head and half the team to be dropped in 2011 & 2012.
And probably the same ones who argued for almost a full season, saying that Jamie Peacock will never be a prop.

Considering we are 2014, and you missed out 2013, wouldn't that make it, some people have long memories?

Not really. Remembering 10-20 years ago would probably require a longer memory.
Less than 2 years ago really shouldn't, should it?

I'd say probably also selective memory.

Most would forget Warrington getting battered 62-18 by London the week before the 2012 CC final. I've seen enough sport in my life and plenty of poor performances the week before big important games not to hold much weight to what happened last night. Whilst bad last night it doesn't tell us anything really about ourselves moving forward. I was more concerned when we went to Odsal in 2012 and lost 12-4 with no distractions and a stronger line-up.

You get the sense some wouldn't mind if we got knocked out the CC next week and we slip out of the top 4 and fail in the playoffs as it'll give them their "I told you" moment.

Before anyone can come out and predictably say "how can you defend last night".....I'm not. It was rubbish. It disappoints me whenever Leeds lose as I've always stated I wanted Leeds to finish as high as possible in the table.......it just seems strange that so many who had relaxed attitudes towards the regular season previously and wanted players rested for big games as a high league placing wasn't really important are now getting really upset because we've rested players and it might cost us the LLS which suddenly people are now craving.

Printer-The resting/rotation debate always had a context to it and NO-ONE ever mentioned making as many changes as last night.
As for LLS I'm not that concerned or bothered about it and I'm fully aware of "previous losses" before big games.
The fact still remains last night was in no way good enough too many "senior" players never showed up and irrespective of the relegated opponents they wanted it more which should never be acceptable in any derby game.

Given you can't remember anything from last night due to your vodka consumption how can you say it was rubbish?

Just another stark reminder of how much we will miss JP and sinfield when they finish, and a clear indicator that certain other players just cant be trusted, or just simply dont have the ability to raise their game when passed the burden of responsibility.

I guess that anything is possible until events prove otherwise but when did Leeds last show they could beat Huddersfield?

Even the point they took off them this season appeared to be grand larceny

If you look at the PD for everyone, we have scored the least total points out of the top 6. Ok, I accept Leeds have still conceded the least too, but that is more down to the first third of the season. The defence has been more porous recently - which would be more ok if we were scoring loads. Unfortunately we have not been. Even when we played well earlier on, we weren't wracking up loads 40/50 point scores (as many teams - even those lower down have done at times).

We very rarely seem to get more than about 28 points, even when dominating. Take away the 'domination' then you are probably looking at maybe 20 point scores at best. Add the dodgy defence and whereas before we were conceding no more than 12 a game, we are now probably averaging around 18-20 points a game at best.

Unfortunately the attack has gone limp so we have lost our best early-season weapon (defence) and therefore having to rely on our attack to win games for us. Unfortunately, our attack hasn't been as explosive / picked up as many points as the rest of the top 6 and even lower down individual teams further down the league have scored more heavily in individual games than we have. We have scored 30+ 11 times this season in league and cup, but only 2 of those have been since the start of May (the last game v Saints in the CC at the end of April was when I think we properly played well).

We conceded more than 20 points a game zero times by the start of May, but 5 times since. The two together are not a good mix - the previously strong defence has gone frail and the previously ok attack has gone down a bit too. It leaves a small margain from which to grind out victories - more recently we are seeing that it is too fine and keep coming up short.

All good points. I'm no statto but my perception is that low-scoring teams - over the course of a season - are rarely those that walk away with the trophies, regardless of how few they concede.

Everyone always clichés it up ''defence wins titles''. But you need that creative spark to get the points in the tight games. Leeds have lost that.

Fair points. But would be fairer to take into consideration the fact that we lost our key attacker (Burrow) for 10 or 12 weeks at the same time as our other hooker (Aiton) Add to that some loss of early season form by key players and presto things fall apart. Now we have most of the injured back and rested we should start to see some improvement as the talent is still there.

Leeds were still performing reasonably with the loss of both 'hookers' ....it's since they have both returned that we have seen the steepest decline


The talent IS there but you would have hoped by now the winning ability with improving attack from a fully fit squad was more apparent. Instead the team appears to be slipping even further down the slippery slope....I hope I am wrong and the team pulls the cat out of the bag against Warrington (still glad I am not a season ticket holder though)

Its the inability to score "close in" that frustrates me.

If we get a break from 50/60 meters out I would back us to score.

As soon as we are 10 meters out near the line, I would never back us to score. Theres no logic to it and no variety. Ball ends back in the halfs and a crossfield kick out to the wings or we muck it up and turn the ball over on the line.

We can turn it round, I just hope we can do it this week.

Well not quite accurate if you consider we started clicking towards the end of the HKR game with Burrow and even Sinfield and McGuire having good games. Also we saw improvement when we played Cas (compared to other recent showings before anyone gets too picky). Since then we've had Sinfield missing thus moving Burrow back to the halves.

Infact in the last 21 games (since after Widnes at home in Round 5) we've only been able to field our complete set of pivots.....
Hardaker - Sinfield - McGuire - Burrow - Aiton, just the once in that game vs Castleford a few weeks ago.

Saturday looks like we might get that rare chance to see them all. Even of people don't consider Aiton a key player/pivot for us, then the other four have only been on the pitch together in the Cas game since the St Helens cup game.

Defence only wins titles if you score some points to win. I know it is a different sport, but I remember Bobby Robson saying that even if you have a defence that never concedes, if you can't score then the best result you can get is 0-0. Ideally defences should be good, but if they aren't (as ours isn't, currently) at least have it that your attack might be able to get you out of any holes you get into. We don't have that at the moment and haven't since early May...

It seems we are 'wear 'em downers' as a team - we don't often get trounced and we don't often trounce teams - we just chip away and more often than not come out on top. We don't blitz or dazzle with speed, ingenuity or cunning close to the line - we just try and bulldoze through the middle and sometimes get through, sometimes we don't.

I expect (and do see) clever play by opposition teams in the last 20 that result in tries - with us, in the final 20 it largely is just a PTB and try and shoulder barge through 4 defenders in the middle, or kick out wide to knock down for Watkins / Hall.

The last bit of actual clever play close to the line I remember was R. Ward's dummy PTB and dive several weeks ago - v Catalans was it..? So long I am not sure!

In the game against Bradford, just after the Bulls got their last try, there was a situation just a few yards from the Bradford line, with Leeds attacking with urgency for once, and Bradford fully stretched. Ward went into dummy half, and you could see he was looking for that exact same play, and the gaps were there. Burrow pushed him out of the way, and took the role himself, the pass went to the middle at face height, slowing down the move and the player was tackled.

Whilst much has been made of the 'Points For' column and how we are trailing in it, we should also remember that we don't batter the lower placed teams like some of the other do. In fact if you take the 10 games we've played so far against the other 5 teams in the race for the top 4 then you can come up with this......

Leeds
Points For - 188
Points Against - 166

And for comparison to the Wigan attack much loved on here

Wigan
Points For - 198
Points Against - 189

Granted we didn't put Salford to the sword like they did last week, nor when we did beat Bradford earlier in the season did we put 84 past them (only a mere 46 in comparison)......but they aren't the teams who we're going to have to beat in the playoffs.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is win or lose on Saturday I cannot see us scoring 50 plus v London in our next league game

but the club and team can do no wrong apologists will no doubt justify it



Either way after the semi the 'future' team should be selected.

Leeds record this year against the other teams in the top 6 is as follows

Saints - Pd 1 Lst 1
Wigan Pd 2 W1 Lst 1
Cas Pd2 W1 D1
Warrington Pd 2 W1 Lst 1
Giants Pd2 D1 Lst 1

So they have a W3 D2 L4 record - these are the teams they will be playing in play offs!!

You can make stats say almost anything

Oh goody, the team already being criticised for not scoring 50 points in a match they haven't even played yet.

And people get upset and defensive when I say there's a heavy negative attitude on here