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| Quote ="tvoc"He would but they were worth what they were worth as were drop goals and again that was different to what they are worth in the modern day.
I'm not aware of anyone ever trying to adjust points totals to take account of differential scoring systems. '" I am not suggesting you change your points tallies. However your lists of top points scorers surely deserves mention of the differences as not everyone maybe aware. I also made the point about the heavy leather ball. The modern ball is much easier to kick particularly when wet. Therefore Lewis Jone's long standing record is all the more remarkable. He also scores a few points at a high level in Union before he was signed.
Quote ="tvoc"I don't have such figures as it goes but I note that Headingley's top attendance for a Leeds league game was 40,175 V Bradford Northern, 21st May 1947 and for a Leeds cup game 38,914 V Wigan, 9th February 1957.
(The biggest Headingley attendance for a Test match was 36,529 Great Britain V Australia, 9th October 1948.)
The book they came from covers 1895 to 1979 and I can cover the rest to date and without looking I know there is nothing to compare to those so imagine the rest of the top 10 would be around those times also.'"
I remember watching a 5-5 draw against Wigan at Headingley in the cup in early 1961 with around 34,000 or so in the ground all soaking wet. We went to Wigan for the replay and got stuffed 32-7 with Eric Aston outstanding. |
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"However your lists of top points scorers surely deserves mention of the differences as not everyone maybe aware. '"
And thank you for doing so.
The vast majority of lists I have produced on this thread have only related to the SL Era and as such there have been no real variations to qualify as a rule. When discussing historical achievements, as hopefully we will get to do re Sinfield at some point, then I imagine that'll be the time for the relative comparisons to begin.
Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I remember watching a 5-5 draw against Wigan at Headingley in the cup in early 1961 with around 34,000 or so in the ground all soaking wet. We went to Wigan for the replay and got stuffed 32-7 with Eric Aston outstanding.'"
Leeds should have won at the first attempt protecting the lead gained from a Derek Hallas try and Jones two pointer especially after Wigan's hooker Sayer had received his marching orders for tripping.
Reminds me of a JP Trophy game at headingley V Wigan some years later when Steve Hampson was dismissed for a reflex high shot on Colin Maskill. Wigan escaped with a draw that day also and progressed after the replay. |
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| Quote ="tvoc"
Reminds me of a JP Trophy game at headingley V Wigan some years later when Steve Hampson was dismissed for a reflex high shot on Colin Maskill. Wigan escaped with a draw that day also and progressed after the replay.'"
I remember that. Wasn't the replay on a Thursday night at the future Tesco Extra? |
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Quote ="gulfcoast_highwayman"I remember that. Wasn't the replay on a Thursday night at the future Tesco Extra?'"
That's correct. Four days before christmas 1989. The Saturday game at Headingley was televised by Grandstand and ended in a 10 all draw in front of 9,455. You walked away with a sinking feeling knowing you'd almost certainly blown the best chance of progress and those fears were realised although another tight game (8-0) at Central Park in front of a buzzing 19,994.
__________
Quote ="Frosties."Brent Webb's 100th app this week if he plays isnt it?'"
I've just had a look here: www.therhinos.co.uk/rugby/player ... ef=dynamic and if that is anything to go by I'm surprised they are only one game out.
Let's start at the beginning of Webb's Leeds career in 2007. If you scroll down the page and open the link to 2007 you'll find the correct total of Appearances (on the game by game summary) at 26 but instead of the 24 tries he actually contributed (a figure correctly acknowledged in the blurb at the top of the page, 4th paragraph down) they've given him 23 + 1 GOAL. It's not even as if the 'phantom goal' was really a try in the game it has been credited to, the missing try came in a different game altogether.
Then we can see that the game by game breakdown doesn't tally with the bottom cumulative table because they've included Challenge Cup games in the former and excluded them from the latter.
Nobody said keeping accurate statistics was easy, if it was everyone would do it. I will happily stand to be corrected but here are Brent Webb's Leeds totals season by season as I have them:
2007 - Played 26 + 0, Tries 24, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 96
2008 - Played 29 + 0, Tries 16, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 64
2009 - Played 24 + 1, Tries 16, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 64
2010 - Played 18 + 0, Tries 13, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 52
Total - Played 97 + 1, Tries 69, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 276
Split by Competition:
SL Regular Rounds - Played 82 + 1, Tries 54, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 216
SL Play-Offs - Played 8 + 0, Tries 4, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 16
Challenge Cup - Played 5 + 0, Tries 11, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 44
World Club Challenge - Played 2 + 0, Tries 0, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 0
Total - Played 97 + 1, Tries 69, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 276 |
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Quote ="gulfcoast_highwayman"I remember that. Wasn't the replay on a Thursday night at the future Tesco Extra?'"
That's correct. Four days before christmas 1989. The Saturday game at Headingley was televised by Grandstand and ended in a 10 all draw in front of 9,455. You walked away with a sinking feeling knowing you'd almost certainly blown the best chance of progress and those fears were realised although another tight game (8-0) at Central Park in front of a buzzing 19,994.
__________
Quote ="Frosties."Brent Webb's 100th app this week if he plays isnt it?'"
I've just had a look here: www.therhinos.co.uk/rugby/player ... ef=dynamic and if that is anything to go by I'm surprised they are only one game out.
Let's start at the beginning of Webb's Leeds career in 2007. If you scroll down the page and open the link to 2007 you'll find the correct total of Appearances (on the game by game summary) at 26 but instead of the 24 tries he actually contributed (a figure correctly acknowledged in the blurb at the top of the page, 4th paragraph down) they've given him 23 + 1 GOAL. It's not even as if the 'phantom goal' was really a try in the game it has been credited to, the missing try came in a different game altogether.
Then we can see that the game by game breakdown doesn't tally with the bottom cumulative table because they've included Challenge Cup games in the former and excluded them from the latter.
Nobody said keeping accurate statistics was easy, if it was everyone would do it. I will happily stand to be corrected but here are Brent Webb's Leeds totals season by season as I have them:
2007 - Played 26 + 0, Tries 24, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 96
2008 - Played 29 + 0, Tries 16, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 64
2009 - Played 24 + 1, Tries 16, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 64
2010 - Played 18 + 0, Tries 13, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 52
Total - Played 97 + 1, Tries 69, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 276
Split by Competition:
SL Regular Rounds - Played 82 + 1, Tries 54, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 216
SL Play-Offs - Played 8 + 0, Tries 4, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 16
Challenge Cup - Played 5 + 0, Tries 11, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 44
World Club Challenge - Played 2 + 0, Tries 0, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 0
Total - Played 97 + 1, Tries 69, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 276 | |
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Juan - I don't disagree with your comment about Jones kicking a heavier ball, but to balance that out, they played a shedload more games per season in those days as well (including games against very weak teams in the league). Its only in the last ten years or so that the number of games played has come down significantly, with getting rid of the County Cups and John Player.
Those two facts also explain in part why historically top tryscorers smash most of today's players out of sight. If Offiah were around today and got a similar strike rate to that he had at Widnes and then Wigan, he'd score a lot less over his whole career. Hence my point that McGuire's try-scoring record compares favourably to any halfback based on tries per game. At his current strike rate if he were to play as many games as Alan Hardisty he'd get well over 300 tries.
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| Not everyone's like that with McGuire. In fact I praise the water he walks on. IMO he's the best scrum half in the country and I have said so for about 3 years. Anyway, I hate the "there's only 1 Danny McGuire" chant because it doesn't even go 
We've started a new one but it's only slowly catching on. Hopefully a few more tries before the seasons end and it will have spread some. |
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What does the new one go like?
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Ohhhhhh ohhhhh... It's Daaaany McGuiiiiiire!!!
To sex is on fire.
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Next opponents Wigan
Leeds SL Era Record V Wigan
All Comps: All Fixtures
Played 49, Won 21, Drawn 3, Lost 25, Pts For 1061, Pts Agst 1076 ..... Avg Scr (22-22 ) ..... 46%
All Comps: Headingley:
Played 26, Won 13, Drawn 2, Lost 11, Pts For 657, Pts Agst 521 ..... Avg Scr (25-20) ..... 54%
SL Regular Rounds:
Played 37, Won 15, Drawn 3, Lost 19, Pts For 816, Pts Agst 849 ..... Avg Scr (22-23) ..... 45%
SL Regular Rounds: Headingley:
Played 18, Won 7, Drawn 2, Lost 9, Pts For 460, Pts Agst 400 ..... Avg Scr (26-22) ..... 44%
__________
Leeds' Biggest Win: 70 - 0 (Headingley - 18th June 2005)
Leeds' Biggest Win At Headingley: See Above
Leeds' Widest Winning Margin: See Above
Leeds' Widest Winning Margin At Headingley: See Above
__________
Wigan's Biggest Win: 68-14 (Central Park - 9th August 1996)
Wigan's Biggest Win At Headingley: 40 - 20 (1st June 1996)
Wigan's Widest Winning Margin: Above Top
Wigan's Widest Winning Margin At Headingley: Above 2nd Top
.........................................................................: 38 - 18 (24th August 2001)
Brian McClennan's record V Wigan
Played 9, Won 5, Drawn 0, Lost 4, Pts For 185, Pts Agst 155 ..... Avg Scr (21-17) ..... 56%
Leeds W/D/L record V Wigan in sequence:
=#FF0000L L L L L W W =#FF0000L L W =#FF0000L W W =#FF0000L W =#FF0000L L L W =#FF0000L W =#FF0000L=#800000 D W =#800000D =#FF0000L W =#FF0000L =#800000D W W W =#FF0000L W W =#FF0000L L L L W =#FF0000L W =#FF0000L W W W=#FF0000 L L W
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| Quote ="tvoc"And thank you for doing so.
The vast majority of lists I have produced on this thread have only related to the SL Era and as such there have been no real variations to qualify as a rule. When discussing historical achievements, as hopefully we will get to do re Sinfield at some point, then I imagine that'll be the time for the relative comparisons to begin.
Leeds should have won at the first attempt protecting the lead gained from a Derek Hallas try and Jones two pointer especially after Wigan's hooker Sayer had received his marching orders for tripping.
Reminds me of a JP Trophy game at headingley V Wigan some years later when Steve Hampson was dismissed for a reflex high shot on Colin Maskill. Wigan escaped with a draw that day also and progressed after the replay.'"
Yes we had our chances. I also remember in that game Jack Fairbanks shoulder charging Billy Boston into the paddock. You could here the crack all around the ground. Some tough man that Framer Jack |
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Juan - I don't disagree with your comment about Jones kicking a heavier ball, but to balance that out, they played a shedload more games per season in those days as well (including games against very weak teams in the league). Its only in the last ten years or so that the number of games played has come down significantly, with getting rid of the County Cups and John Player.
Those two facts also explain in part why historically top tryscorers smash most of today's players out of sight. If Offiah were around today and got a similar strike rate to that he had at Widnes and then Wigan, he'd score a lot less over his whole career. Hence my point that McGuire's try-scoring record compares favourably to any halfback based on tries per game. At his current strike rate if he were to play as many games as Alan Hardisty he'd get well over 300 tries.'"
Yes good points. Also in the earlier days before the 4/10/6 tackle rule a good side could keep the ball for most of the game and forwards were heavier, slower and not around to tackle the backs. However a lot of time was taken up with fighting! and players could get lost in the mud for long spells so I suppose that evened it back again! |
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Yes we had our chances. I also remember in that game Jack Fairbanks shoulder charging Billy Boston into the paddock. You could here the crack all around the ground. Some tough man that Framer Jack'"
Sorry typo. Should be farmer Jack |
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| Quote ="Harrigan"Ohhhhhh ohhhhh... It's Daaaany McGuiiiiiire!!!
To sex is on fire.'"
dear god no. |
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| Quote ="tvoc"Nobody said keeping accurate statistics was easy, if it was everyone would do it. I will happily stand to be corrected but here are Brent Webb's Leeds totals season by season as I have them:
2007 - Played 26 + 0, Tries 24, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 96
2008 - Played 29 + 0, Tries 16, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 64
2009 - Played 24 + 1, Tries 16, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 64
2010 - Played 18 + 0, Tries 13, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 52
Total - Played 97 + 1, Tries 69, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 276
Split by Competition:
SL Regular Rounds - Played 82 + 1, Tries 54, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 216
SL Play-Offs - Played 8 + 0, Tries 4, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 16
Challenge Cup - Played 5 + 0, Tries 11, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 44
World Club Challenge - Played 2 + 0, Tries 0, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 0
Total - Played 97 + 1, Tries 69, Goals 0, Drop Goals 0, Points 276'"
Thank you Sky. Glad you now agree with me despite what your website and Sky News Text were saying earlier in the week. |
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It's here.
If Brent Webb plays tomorrow it'll mark his 100th Appearance for Leeds.
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Has there ever been a more experienced bench as Leeds' was last week in terms of substitute appearances for a club?
Ali Lauitiiti - 111
Ryan Bailey - 77
Rob Burrow - 75
Luke Burgess - 61
Total - 324
__________
Kevin Sinfield needs 30 points to register 2,500 for Leeds as he continues to chase down Lewis Jones all time club record of 2,920.
Using his points per game average over the last 8 seasons (since he took over the goal-kicking full time) and no lengthy injuries permitting he's on target to reach and pass the landmark during the 2nd half of the 2012 season. Providing he extends his current contract that is due to expire at the end of 2011.
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Interesting statement from Peter Smith in the YEP this week:
[iThere's no doubt the last few years have been a golden period in Leeds' history, but the one thing this Rhinos team needs before they can be considered a truly great side is a Wembley triumph.[/i
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Last week at Castleford Brent Webb added his 100th Start to his 100th Appearance from the week before. Lee Smith became the 11th Leeds player to top 300 career points for the club in the SL Era.
__________
This week marks Leeds' 400th Regular Round fixture of the SL Era. Coincidentally should he play Danny McGuire will have played in exactly half of them.
SL Era Regular Round Appearances for Leeds:
1 - Kevin Sinfield 292
2 - Keith Senior 281
3 - Rob Burrow 237
4 - Barrie McDermott 219
5 - Francis Cummins 217
6 - Matt Diskin 208
7 - Danny McGuire 199
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Where are JJB and Ryan Bailey in the list TVOC? Must be pretty close.
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| Jones-Buchanan and Ryan Bailey are the next two inline on 188 and 180 respectfully although they'll obviously have to wait for 2011 now (injuries, form and not reneging on contracts  ) to join. |
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Thanks tvoc. As informative as ever.
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| Quote ="Harrigan"Ohhhhhh ohhhhh... It's Daaaany McGuiiiiiire!!!
To sex is on fire.'"
Just swap his name with Tony Yeboahs from the old LUFC song. Look it up on that well known prohibited video sharing site if you need to. |
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Isn't McGuire very close to jumping a few places on the all-time try-scoring lists now? He must be very close to Cummins.
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McGuire and Senior must be at the top of all time Superleague try scorers aswell?
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| Quote ="Matt23"Just swap his name with Tony Yeboahs from the old LUFC song. Look it up on that well known prohibited video sharing site if you need to.'"
I like  |
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| Quote ="Man of steel 07"McGuire and Senior must be at the top of all time Superleague try scorers aswell?'"
Think they are.
Sure it was mentioned on Sky that McGuire had overtaken Vainikolo to go second. |
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Isn't McGuire very close to jumping a few places on the all-time try-scoring lists now? He must be very close to Cummins.'"
The top career try-scoring list for the Leeds club looks something like this:
1 - Eric Harris 391
2 - John Atkinson 340
3 - Alan Smith 283
4 - Drew Turnbull 228
5 - Les Dyl 193
6 - Francis Cummins 188
=7 - Danny McGuire 187
=7 - Stan Smith 187
9 - Keith Senior 167
10 - Syd Hynes 158
11 - John Holmes 154
12 - Garry Schofield 147
13 - Lewis Jones 144
14 - Dinny Campbell 136
15 - Rob Burrow 128
(What a magnificent back division that was during the late sixties and early seventies able to call on the services of Holmes, Smith, Hynes, Dyl and Atkinson.)
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As a matter of interest Danny McGuire has now gone 2 points ahead of Garry Schofield in terms of total points scored for the club on 750. That puts him around 17th on the Leeds all time list.
I say around as I'm cobbling together two areas of reference to reach the figures on these.
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Kevin Sinfield needs 2 points to bring up 2,500 for the club as he continues to hunt down Lewis Jones' all time Leeds record points haul of 2,920. |
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