I think looking back at his early years at Leeds then yes McDermott was learning on the job (one he inherited 12 months early) and of course made mistakes, he also seemed awkward and uncomfortable which made it hard for people to at warm to him personally regardless of results.

Key thing I think though is recruitment which I'm not sure you can lay at his door, around that time it was our poorest for a long time. Ben Cross, Moore, Griffin, Hauraki, simply not good enough as well as losing our first batch of 'core' players in Senior, Webb and Ali. He's too often been left with a squad that he's clearly not fully confident in a chunk of the players. Switch to the last couple of years and he's been recruited Briscoe, Moon, Cuthbertson, Garbutt and finally seen the likes of Stevie Ward and Singleton ready to play weekly to a good standard.

Interesting several weeks back I read GH talking about Cuthbertson saying we tried to sign him 5 years ago but it didn't happen. Could've made those early McDermott years very different if we'd have pulled off that singing at that time.

So now you have changed to say KEY players. Which ones are you talking about then from the team I mentioned at the Millenium in 2011 ? who were?

Web BJB Delaney Senior Hall
Sinfield Burrow
Kylie Buderus Cross
JJB Ali L
Ablett

Bench: L Burgess Kirke Pitts Watkins

Remember Mac started in 2011 without JP & Mags who were both on the long term injured list. Delaney was in the , Senior later got injured and Ablett stood in then a young Hardaker and Watkins was just a youngster making the odd appearance.

Since then Mac has made 1st teamers out of youngsters Sutcliffe, S Ward, Singleton, Watkins, & Hardaker converting the latter to a FB. Also new players were signed Moon, Achurch, Briscoe, Aiton, Cuthbertson and Garbutt. So the team has been evolving throughout the McDermott era.

You talk of structure and set plays when in fact our attacking style of play is unstructured with less emphasis on set plays. You talk of how long it has taken him to achieve as though every other team is playing the same entertaining way. You discount the fact that BM took over a team that had lost its way the previous season and whose stars were ageing and with key men injured yet he was able to produce back to back championships and then a long awaited Challenge Cup. You talk of overplaying players as though you are an expert in such matters and were in possession of all the facts at the time.

How many times have you expressed your "joy" regarding our coach this year?

Which Leeds coach has a better record at getting to finals and winning trophies and then creating the most exciting side in SL? He doesn't look a top coach this year he is the top coach this year.

I mentioned credit for finals twice. how many times do you want it repeating. I know you are ageing but surely not that forgetful? JP and mcguire may not have played that game but they were both around and had been for seasons. clutching at straws to suit your argument?
if you think we have no structure then you need to look again. the offloads are only part of it. the running across the line, drawing men into the tackle and going wide early, while sounding basic, is done to a very high structured standard. it's been worked on and worked on, for which, again, I have given plenty of credit.
hardaker played full back at Featherstone and plenty on here, including me, were calling for him to go there before webb retired. it was hardly rocket science, although he has got far better than I expected. best full back in then SL by miles, but not according to you!
whilst he deserves credit for evolving the team, which again I have said a few times, the real crunch is next season. this would be same whoever is the coach.
as for being an expert on over playing players when forwards can hardly walk and he has used 2 subs in an hour you don't really have to be an expert to ask questions.
we have played some awful stuff when he took over. dour, boring rugby. last season he started changing the style and has taken it further season for which, plenty of times, I have praised him for. unlike you who fail to see his shortcomings I call it as I see it

It's the way the cookie crumbles.

what is 2005 more memorable for? 2 final defeats or slaughtering Wigan in fine style 70-0 at Headingley?

IMV it's most memorable for being cheated out of a Grand Final win because the Bulls cheated the salary cap to bring Adrian Morley over.
The cup final defeat was self-inflicted.

Classic southstander some would say



A few weeks before that final IIRC Bulls schooled us at Headingley. without Morley!

That was the game before the CC final where Senior got injured and the season started going tits up

[urlhttp://www.therhinos.co.uk/rugby/matchcentre/10609.php[/url

Thanks for that, remember it clearly now.

entertaining a great but picking up cups is better.

If you ask most players and coaches, they'll tell you entertainment is a distant second to winning.

My post that you first challenged made a first point that Mac' critics are quick to throw stones but find it difficult to give him credit. How many times have you praised Mac this season Tad? Your reply rather demonstrates this point.

You also "absolute rubbish"ed my second point that in early 2011 the team were not quite ready to play the new coaches chosen style saying that "he's had 5 years with more or less the same players"

Having pointed out to you that the majority of that team have left you moved your goal posts and changed your point to say "the majority of KEY players have been around for all of his tenure" as though this was a reason that the team were ready of the offload game at the start of Mac's tenure in 2011.

As you kindly pointed out my age gives me an excuse for memory loss but I do not need to use it on this occasion ....what is your excuse young lad? Given that Mags and JP missed the first 3 mths of 2011 and by the time they returned the 'harlem globetrotters' experiment had been phased out so you are left with Sinny...... A majority of one key player! So how does this disprove my point that at the start of 2011 the team were not ready for the offload game?




I do not think I have said we have no structure. I believe this has been one of your calls over the years. There were plenty of clues in how we got to our many finals under BM that we had good defensive structure but you are one of those that assumed that whenever the players failed to keep to the structure you assumed it was because they had not been coached correctly.

On attack Mac prefers to give the players some leeway on the back of plays well worked out on the training field. When they come off they look great but when players are not at their best things look bad. It is at this time that you critics strike and blame the coach which I think shows a complete lack of understanding of what is within the control of the coach once the players take the field. So when I argue against his critics it is not because I believe him to be mistake free but that you should look at the players first because it is they who either make it happen of not depending on their form and timing.



Yes he did but he was primarily a winger in those days. Now once again Tad you are behind the times. What was said in previous seasons is valid or not at the time. I have stated my up to date views on Hardaker however my glasses do not have the same rose tint as yours.



Yes next year will be a crunch year and one made more difficult by losing Kevin Sinfield earlier than perhaps had been planned and with serious injuries to JJB and Sutcliffe. However GH & Mac have made a good start with the pack but I do think we need some extra cover at 6 now we are losing our No1 key man.



You are not aware of a coaches choices due to form on the training field, or knowledge of the players recovery time. Mac's tactics despite what you say have been successful so far this season.



The players have played some awful boring stuff but why do you choose to blame the coach before the players?

You certainly call the negatives a lot quicker than the positives as you see them but remember t is only as you see them.

and you don't call things as you see them???

Of course. But I do not rush to blame the coach every time the team do not perform

The problem with calling things as you see them in this respect is that fans only see what 20% of the information that goes into decision making and the impact decisions have on many other aspects.

Of which the "no plan B" complaint is the most obvious example.

If the Plan A that you worked on all week on the training field isn't working, the coach gets a maximum of five "active listening" minutes at half-time to correct it. Players are too fatigued both physically and mentally at the break to take in too much tactical information, so the best he can do is offer them some pointers and hope they sink in. No coach in the world has time to install a whole new gameplan mid-game.

Often where a team appears to have "no plan B", it's because the key players in the side are either unable to recognise that Plan A is failing or simply don't have the game management and leadership skills to be able to change it on the hoof and start to play what's in front of them rather than what they were expecting. The last couple of Magic Weekends are perfect examples of Leeds sides not being able to come up with a solution out on the field for breaking down Wigan's "blitz" defence, instead sticking to the pre-planned approach of battering away down the middle, little inside passes off the ruck etc.

Nobody on the field was able to grab hold of the side and say "right, this is what we're going to do differently", yet it's the coach who usually cops the criticism for the players not being able to play with their heads up.

I'm not sure you can even get that much in. I was always told, and coached the same myself, that you will do well to get three points across. Two of those were always "move up faster in defence" and "be more patient in attack" anyway, so that left one

More boring arguments

I prefer discussion. I think we'll agree to disagree mind.................................

Haven't got a problem with that. Nothing wrong with a difference of opinion.

of course not. I don't expect people to agree with everything I say and vice versa.

Back on topic...

Surely HKR (especially without campese) are the biggest underdogs since Wigan vs Sheffield... Of course we all know how that worked out!!! Can't right them off and I'm sure Leeds are too professional to even dream of doing so.

Which reminds me, I'm no gambling man but I did place a bet on that cup final. Got Eagles at 13/1...I didn't expect them to win just thought the odds were ridiculous for a two team final.

Leeds vs London 1999....although London were a bit handier back then than their last few SL years (even though the score line ran away)

Some of Saints wins in the 00's probably had lengthy odds for the opposition. The all conquering Saints side of 2006 vs Hudds and then when they faced Catalans at the first final at the new Wembley.

Great game and day that was, started off with a legend scoring and also included a big Barrie Mac side step try...............

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwCwG7FObK4

Two words (for those old enough): Jamie Sandy.