Why do we have such a problem with Bowen?

Ablett has had an absolute shocker.

Genuine question, how can a ref give a penalty for a ball steal (Jimmy on sargison) when he didn't even notice the ball had come out?

Isn't a pass off the floor a penalty even if it is the last tackle...

you cant say that on hete!!

thought the ref robbed you

Classic Silverwood call of the night.

"Check the onside" for Ash Handley's try. Replay shows Handley about eight yards onside.

I thought it was given because Keinhorst made no attempt to clear the tackle area, the ball coming out was a result of that. Well its what was mentiioned in the commentary. I think the #asktheref will have a few questions to answer after tonights game.

Possibly, what bugged me is that silverwood didn't react to the ball coming out (he didnt seem to realise at all) then immediately blew for a penalty when sargison appealed

Like every other wigan player, he raises his game against leeds.Under Wane Wigan have always played like its a cup final against us.

There is no more pointless exercise than #asktheref.

It's an hour of arguing that black is white and defending clearly incorrect decisions, because they're more interested in saving face. It's become so cringe-inducingly embarrassing they should scrap it ASAP. Any attempt to point out where they've got it wrong just ends up with you being blocked.

Though someone in the commentary team did say the word "guess" to describe the decision. Your guess is as good as mine as to what happened, apart from the ball coming out, bodies in the way.

You can. But you'd look a bit daft. Because he isn't.

The Wigan try that you're obviously alluding to was caused by Keinhorst leaving a huge gap between him and Sinfield. That in itself is caused, at least in part, by having players defending there who aren't used to defending together. Plus excellent play from Wigan.

Had Hardaker been available then that try probably wouldn't have been scored.

Bowen had the ability to make that seeping run and find a gap. That's what I was hoping Watkins would do tonight but he was anonymous really

That was Phil Clarke. It comes to something when Clarke looks like Ronnie the Rhino compared to that bell Cummings.

It was a penalty, even though I don't think Keinhorst was trying to do anything other than get out of the way, but he did knock the ball out with his arm.

Even if he hadn't, I don't mind those decisions from the ref. They get 1 look that's often obscured and from 10+ metres away. As mentioned in the commentary it's a guess and so sometimes they'll be right and sometimes wrong. Having done a bit of informal reffing I can sympathise with the refs having to make those decisions. (of course they could be helped by a 2nd ref behind the play to give another viewpoint).

What often irks me though is the referees tendency to give those kind of decisions that are "best guesses" and then report it to the players as 100% certain. It's something amateur refs do (or did when I was playing) and all it did was antagonise players when they could see the ref was wrong. I played Union too and their refs were much better partly because instead of insisting they were 100% right they'd say things like "it looked like a knock-on from here" or something along those lines. It calmed most players down because even RL players can understand that from one angle an incident can look different to another. Whereas a ref insisting they're right even though you know they're not can be very annoying.

I prefer the other way. Make a decision and sound confident. Any sign of weakness and the players will badger you all game trying to sway the 50 50s

That would require referees who understand that they are on the same level as the players as people, and not on a pedestal above them.

At the moment, there is a grand total of one referee on the SL panel capable of communicating with players as an equal and that's Thaler. The rest are so far up their own backsides it's no wonder they can't see to give a decision.

Unsurprising, when you consider that Ganson is involved in match official development - probably the most arrogant official I've seen since John Holdsworth and Robin Whitfield.

You can be firm in your decision without sounding so certain on what is often a "best guess" of a decision. I've often heard SL refs say to players with absolute certainty that it was a knock on/stolen when it wasn't actually the case.

They can't have been 100% certain in their decision but as the ball has come out they have to make one either way so are going with what is probably closer to a 55/45 decision than a 100% one. Now the problem with sounding so certain in your decision is that there are 26 players on the pitch. The likelihood is that some of them were probably in a better position to see what happened than you are. So if you're wrong but are telling everyone absolutely 100% what happened then you lose the respect and trust of the players.

However, if you couch your language a bit better with something like "it looked like a knock-on/ball steal from here" (which is what I've heard many Union refs say both at amateur level and on TV) then the players might disagree as you could still be wrong, but I don't think you lose anywhere near as much respect. Because you're not telling the players they're wrong, just that it looked different from where you were.

I just think the way refs speak to the players doesn't help themselves. They don't have to pretend to be right all the time. We're all grown ups, we all understand that a ref only has 1 look at an incident and can only be in 1 place at once. But it's the rabid justification of any decision from the ref on the pitch, the head of refs and the RFL (as evidenced by Stuart Cummings on Sky) that leads to a big loss of trust in the refs from both the players and the fans.

Yep. Thaler is by far the best ref in my opinion, at least in part because of how he communicates with the players.

Silverwood in particular has what often appears to be a sneering attitude toward players who question a decision. It sometimes appears like he's laughing at them.

Bentham has got a bit better but still doesn't seem very relaxed when talking to the players. Whereas Child and Hicks are poor communicators and almost seem a bit like a year 7 who's wandered into a 6th form class by accident.

That Joe Cobb looks a decent prospect though. I hope he follows Thalers example rather than Silverwood.

I don't think Ganson will help, though I'm pretty sure the legacy of Stuart Cummings still hangs heavy over the refereeing department.

We did not deserve to lose considering being on the end of some crucial decisions going against us and our injury weakened team. We did not help ourselves either with giving away silly penalties from the likes of Ablett who was poor and Aiton who otherwise was very good.

Cuthbertson was superb and JP gave his usual big contribution. I though Keinhorst was good again and Burrow's impact should have gained us a point.

I would say it was a numbers issue they had a man over Bowen - defend him all you want but Bowen went past Sinfield as if he wasnt there. This notion that Hardaker is some kind of superman capable of stopping every try is nonesense and certainly not born out by what has happened on the field. The Bowen try would probably have not been scored if Hardaker had played but that is the only one

Thought Handley had another really good game - that try saver on Sarginson whislt he was limping was sensational, and Sir Kev's reaction showed how much it meant to the team effort.

Other than that, great performance we didn't deserve to lose. Hardaker in that team would have made a big difference. We'll play them again at least twice I think so let's see..

Silverwood can't spot a clear knock on but can notice a nudge from Aiton.

I would say it was a communications issue between 2 players that don't normally defend together and a player who plays most of his games in League 1.
You know why Bowen went past Sinfield like he wasn't there? Because he wasn't there. A more experienced centre wouldn't have left such a big gap between him and his halfback, especially one who'd played with said halfback and knew he's not the quickest.
It wasn't a numbers issue really, the team had numbered up right just had left too much space. Now Sinfield is partly to blame for that but so is his centre and I'm sure that had Watkins been defending there rather than Keinhorst that that gap wouldn't have been so large.
That's why I think the try would've been stopped if Hardaker had been available, because Watkins would've been at centre.

But being partly to blame for 1 try doesn't make a player a liability in defence. No-one in this current Leeds team is a liability in defence.