"With enough practice, virtually anyone can do it" Hmmm, yes they can, but to what standard? If your theory was anywhere near conceivable, every single team would have a player with the same success rate as Sinny, it's clearly a flawed theory. Sinfield has a God given talent, he's also practiced damn hard, but never the less he is a better kicker than most others through sheer talent. What you preach when applied to the golf world would suggest that any man prepared to put enough hours in could be the next Tiger Woods, completely unrealistic. What about darts ?, a little board no more than a few feet away, surely we could all win millions if only we put the practice in? It's just not that simple. Don't you think that all Superleague clubs that struggle to find a consistently good kicker would just choose one and make him practice relentlessly till he never missed ? The next time you're playing golf with hopelessly bad mate, just tap him on the shoulder and tell him another twenty hours down the line he'll be a scratch golfer.

It isn't a flawed theory. It's pretty much modern sport. Read some books on modern athletes. Especially 'Outliers'. It's almost universally accepted that the basis of the 10,000 hours rule holds true.

Kicking, especially, is a physical action. It isn't creative in any way. You don't need to have vision or decision-making etc as you would for say a half to unlock a defence. Of course some people find some things easier than others. Which might mean they have to do less practice than someone who found it harder to reach the same level.
Then of course it comes down to the quality of the practice. Which is where your kicking coaches come in. And would assist with any issues.

But kicking a rugby ball off a cone and through some posts doesn't require any special ability or talent. Just a special amount of dedication and practice.

Why don't all teams do it? Because it takes a lot of extra practice and they might well prioritise other areas. Leeds are also unique (in my opinion) in having a player like Sinfield at the club as a major part of the team for such a long time. Most other clubs have much more flux in their players and so may be unwilling to commit their player to large amounts of extra practice that won't pay off for a long time.

The counter to your argument is that somehow some people are born with the natural talent to perform an unnatural and manufactured action ( goal kicking) and somehow, despite the very small talent pool RL picks from, players like Sinfield, Eaton, El-Masri etc have made their way through. Which would seem very strange that nature had decided that some babies would be born with the natural ability to kick a ball in a fashion that wasn't even used when they were born.

It seems infinitely more likely that those players are born with the kind of mental skills that means they effectively "enjoy" kicking and they practiced bloody hard at it. Otherwise Sinfield wouldn't have needed the help of coaches like Alred.

Do you believe that psychology has no part whatsoever? Kicking a goal on a practice field can in no way be the same as kicking it in a Grand Final, from a touchline, with 70,000 people watching and the result depending upon the outcome of the kick.

Of course. But you can train mental skills too. It just takes time and dedication. The same as the physical skills.

Again, some people will find these skills easier to learn than others. But to just say Sinfield is a good kicker because he was born that way is wrong in my opinion. Some people may be naturally more athletic/academic/composed/intravert/extrovert etc etc but the real differentiating factor between Sinfield and other kickers is the amount and quality of practice he puts in to goal kicking. He can be regularly seen at Kirkstall practicing after training.

So you are suggesting with the correct training Jamie Peacock could be as good a kicker as Kevin Sinfield!! Seriously I think you omit natural ability/propensity to perform certain skills.

Jonny Wilkinson as a kid, even when told to rest would practice kicking accuracy in his own living room with bog roll as a ball and goal posts constructed from more bog roll cello taped together. He'd spend hours trying to imitate a perfect conversion by Gavin Hastings on top of practicing goal kicking every night at his local rugby club.

His autobiography gives a great insight into how dedicated you need to become one of the best goal kickers in the world. Well worth a read and Dave Alred features quite a bit too.

Yes, of course. Why not? What part of the physical action of performing a goal kick would prevent Jamie Peacock from doing so?


No I don't. I've mentioned that in virtually every post I've made on this thread. Again, some people find things easier than other people. BUT the differentiating factor between the likes of Sinfield and other kickers is the amount and quality of practice he puts in. Which is exactly the same as any other elite athlete or sportsman.

I bet Catalans & Warrington both wish they had a kicker as effective as Sinfield.
Or even Brough!!

Or Riddy.

You've not done a smiley after your this post so I'm assuming you're serious ? Your argument has been blown away over the Magic Weekend. Having watched two of the top teams in Wigan and Warrington persist with totally inadequate kickers, I'm guessing you will offer your expertise to Shaun Wane and Tony Smith, " just make them practice more". Let me know what they say when you have had your eardrums repaired. Matty Smith will never be Pat Richards and Stevan Ratchford will never be Lee Briers. Matty Smith is not as strong as Richards off the tee, this has two major drawbacks. Firstly he cannot attempt kicks from as far out, and secondly, he has to compromise his angle of conversion from the touch line due to his lack of strength. That allied to his inconsistency and lack of ability mean he will cost them points forever more. I'm laughing at the thought of Shaun Wane's face when you offer your kicking guru's advice of "more practice".

How else do you think someone gets better at something?

Sinfield's kicking wasn't as good when he took over as it has been in recent years. Did he suddenly develop more 'natural talent'?

He had the natural talent to start with and the skills were built on top of that - I could take all the driving lessons in the world but I would never be able to drive an F1 car as good as Lewis Hamilton - his natural ability is what sets him apart from the other drivers.

Practise plas a big part but you have to have some propensity to the skill to start with.

I think Sinfield has reached optimum performance regarding kicking, no doubt his devilish attention to detail and dedication has resulted in a top class place kicker. I also think Matty Smith has reached his optimum performance level, and no matter how hard he practices he will never reached standards attained by Sinfield. If you seriously think Wigan are prepared to compromise their whole season by not having a goal kicker practising the required hours, you may also be serious about Peacock being a potentially world class goal kicker.

That's a bit of a different thing. Being an F1 driver is an entire sport not a single skill. That is much more complicated involving many different aspects and skills. But needless to say, his practice (and quality of practice) is the differentiating factor between Hamilton and his opponents. Now, I'll say it again, he may find that practice (eg karting when he was younger), over decades and currently, easier or more enjoyable etc than other people meaning he has an advantage. But that's all it is, an advantage. Not a defining factor that means he was born with this amazing skill that only people with that skill can match.

I'll ask the question again, what part of kicking a ball off a cone would stop Jamie Peacock becoming a top goal kicker?
I can kick a goal from touch line and I'm ridiculously unfit. So it's not the physical act as, despite his age and the battering he must've taken over the years I'm pretty sure Peacock is still in better condition than I am. It's the consistency of the act. Which comes from lots and lots of practice. Which requires concentration and immense dedication. And a lot of time.

That's why there aren't many like Sinfield. There aren't many people willing to put the time in to do it.
When I say time, I'm talking years. In the context of an RL player it isn't easy to put that kind of time in. There are other things that could be trained on or prioritised instead, injury can get in the way, position at the club etc.

If you're in charge of Wakefield for instance do you commit one of your players to a lot of additional training, that you're not sure when it'll pay off, when you're never sure of keeping a player beyond a couple of years? Or do you either give them the time off so they're a bit fresher for games or get them to train on something else? Maybe a part of their game that's weak?
Not to mention clubs have to work with the skills of the players as they receive them and goal kicking is a skill that isn't taught very well at amateur level. And the mental skills involved in goal kicking aren't taught/encouraged at all (in general) at amateur level.

I'm struggling to think of many clubs who've been in Leeds position whereby they've been 99% certain that a player like Sinfield will definitely be with them for a long time.

I think he could be even better. But that's unlikely given the context he's in.
I definitely think Matty Smith could be better. I think some time with a quality kicking coach like Alred would help. As would a lot of extra practice. But as I've said before it's not easy to undertake that extra practice.



What are the required hours? I have no idea how long Smith practices goal kicking. Do you?
I do know if he practiced a lot more he'd get better at goal kicking. I don't see that as an outrageous statement to make.
If extra practice doesn't make any difference why did Leeds undertake lots of skills training when Tony Smith came in? Or this pre-season? Leading to our improved passing and offloading this season.
In terms of Matty Smith, maybe Wigan have decided he's doing enough training on goal kicking as they have lots and lots of other things to train?

Modern team sports are effectively about the balance of training. Too much strength compared to speed? Too much speed compared to agility? Too much passing compared to tackling? Too much tackling compared to defensive positioning? Etc etc.

This balance, and the long time it takes, is why many players and clubs don't commit to lots of extra training.

There is a saying around the world, "Practice makes perfect". There is a reason that saying is used daily, and used in all occurances. Him is correct to a degree.

However, me personally, I think goal kicking is highly reliant on state of mind rather than just a skill set.

I agree. Though I'd say that that state of mind is actually a skill set that can be taught/learnt/coached.

I don't know, but I'm willing to bet, that when Sinfield received coaching on his kicking from Alred, most of it was about things other than the physical act of kicking the ball. Id bet most of it was about the mental side of goal kicking.

Its true that practice makes perfect, but you need to have a natural ability and co-ordination to start with. To suggest that someone without those could achieve an 80% accuracy rate is laughable

Why? Those things can be taught. It just requires more practice/coaching than someone who already has those abilities.

It's not laughable at all. Kicking a ball is as easy as riding a bike. What you then need to add is co-ordination and as I said above the right mind set. Therefore practice and have the right focus can considerably improve your kicking accuracy.

I will give you an example of mind set, and this happens with all kickers. My young one, who doesn't regularly kick and doesn't practice no where near enough, can go to the field and kick for goal. Sometimes he will bang the first 20 in on the trot from all over the pitch. Then as soon as he misses one, the next 10 you can bet he will miss. A kicker needs to have their eye in, and then keep their mind focussed, rather than letting a miss effect them.

Take darts as another example, are people seriously suggesting that you are born with a natural skill set for darts? no you get great by practice and focus. Goal kicking is not much different to darts in reality.

So, there's nothing to stop you banging over those touchline specials into your 60s providing you keep practicing?

A feat I'm massively impressed by whatever the age of the kicker, btw. Only ever took one place kick in my entire rugby life. In front of the sticks it was.

It never reached the try line

Absolutely right, if I kept practicing, there's nothing to stop me.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not pretending I'm a good goal kicker, like you most of my attempts struggle to reach the try line! Just outlining that despite my appallingly bad physical condition, the physical act of kicking a goal can be done. So it's only consistency that is the issue.

Not only is Southstander full of people who believe they cn run the club better than Hetherington or coach the club better than McDermott it's bow full of people who think they can kick goals as accurately as one of the all time greats in the game.

Tremendous.

Really? Who's said that?

Wigan coach Shaun Wane has taken the unusual approach of enlisting the help of a RL forum contributor to solve his clubs goal kicking problems. After Matty Smith again cost his side with some wayward conversions, Wane took immediate action.
" We heard there was a kicking guru giving out some pretty useful advice on a Leeds fans forum so we've got him on board. Apparently it's all down to practice, that's where we've been going wrong for the last couple of years. We made contact with the guy and he starts on Monday. Matty will benefit from his input. There's nothing scientific going on, just practice, simple as that".
When asked why the club had not picked up on the simple answer to his clubs woes Wane said,
"Sometimes there's no magic formula, it was there staring us all in the face. We won't be making that mistake again"