How old is Ablett again...25?
Ellis is 30, made his GB debut at 22/23 and was in the SL dream team at 27.

Tick Tock Carl.

Joel Tomkins, the only back rower that will get as good as or near to Ellis.

.

Joel Tompkins???

Can you honestly see that happening cos i cant?

I would pick Watkins at LC with either Delaney or Ablett at RC, but can you see that pairing happening this season?

It's got more chance that any combination including Wa=#FF0000ktins. I'll be calling Wa=#FF0000tkins Wa=#FF0000ktins myself from now on though, I quite like it.




You may laugh but not only is it a pretty decent shout (IMO) but he (Tomkins) actually exists.

I never said he was as good as Ellis. He was our ready made replacement for Ellis. He's a very different player to Ellis. Whilst he hasn't reached the heights Ellis did (yet) he does posses certain attributes that are better than Ellis.

Joel Tompkins has some talent but Gaz Ellis he ain't. Tompkins is a thug and you could never describe one of our finest backrowers as being a thug.

He has a temper but that doesn't make him a thug.

Joel is a top quality second rower but I don't see any similarities with Ellis's style of play.

Absolutely agree, as painful as it is to admit, ive thought all season that if Saints ever get the chance to pick from strength they should be the strongest team this year. You were streets ahead of Wigan the other day until injuries (and the resulting inability to interchange) took their toll.

As for our lot, I still think theres chance we may have an influence on the trophies, but still far from convinced McDermott is the man for.the job - have you heard some of his Cantona-esque post match comments!?! And to keep reasonably on-thread I think Delaney & Ablett should be 2nd row, with Lauitiiti or Hauraki as interchange. Leave the penalty machine headless chicken that is JJB out to graze - far too much sentiment in his selection (in my opinion)

Hell of a player. Far quicker than Ellis. Will probably play most of his career at centre, which seems to suit him better.

Joel Tomkins is to Gareth Ellis what Kallum Watkins is to Mal Meninga

If at the end of his career Joel Tomkins is talked of as on the same level as Ellis I will eat my hat, your hat, and travel the world to eat all the hats at a hat making convention on every continent. Including Antarctica.

Tomkins is a decent second rower, runs good lines and runs hard and fast, doesnt have the workrate, doesnt have the technique of Ellis, doesnt have the brain, and is prone to complete idiocy.

Ellis when he left, and if he were to come back would be comfortably the best 2nd rower in the comp. Im not even convinced Tomkins is even the 2nd best 2nd rower at Wigan.

If there is a 2nd rower who can reach the heights of Ellis playing in SL today, it would more likely be Liam Farrell. Id also say that Chris Clarkson is ahead at this stage of the curve Tomkins set and could easily go on to be a better player.

Another useful G1 input. Ive huge respect for JJB and all he has achieved in blue & amber but maybe its time to accept that someone who cant pass, isnt that quick, gives away stupid (sometimes critical) penalties and is prone to regular handling errors cant continually be selected because he's a lovely lad and always tries his best.

Maybe so Smokey. Reckon Tompkins will score twice as many tries as Ellis.

Ellis was/is a strong runner, and a strong tackler, and fairly consistent. He had a bad habit of jumping out of the line (especially bad in his last season at Leeds) and seemed magnetically attracted to tacklers rather than gaps. Lets not pretend he's was some kind of god.

I thought he was picked because he'll make 35+ tackles and take 20+ carries, rather than being a nice lad who tries hard.

Interesting comparision www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011

Interesting comparision www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2011

What he said.

And Danny Mcguire will score a bucket load more than Tomkins. They are different players with different responsibilities and different objectives.


Your comparison is interesting. Look at the difference in metres per carry, Ellis is making nearly half a metre every run more, look at the difference in errors and penalties.

In just 4 more appearances than Ellis:

200 more tackles
over twice as many marker tackles
more tackle busts
less missed tackles

Wow, you have high expectations!! Ellis had a mega workrate - this must mean Tomkins' workrate is just off the scale!!
The undoubted downside to his game is his attitude in fiery moments, hence that hefty penalty count. He'll learn how to channel that.

Well, every player is different. These both played right side second row though.




I'll give up that half a metre per carry and the penalties and errors for four times the tries, twice the assists, twice the offloads, 50% more tackles, twice the marker tackles. 50 cm a metre a carry though.....

half a metre per carry, at Ellis' carries per game, equates to nearly 400 metres a season around a 16% increase. Not a stat to be sniffed at. If we consider that, even been generous and ignoring the extra work of another set, teams lose around 45meters per penalty, Tomkins costs his team 1125metres, defensively. He makes another third of the errors Ellis did (in his worst season remember, whereas Wigan were dominant last year and this was Tomkins best year by a fair bit) and got sinbinned twice.

This is also ignoring that in 2008 (the year we are comparing) Ellis was playing inside pretty much anybody we could put there, a mixture of Watkins barely out of nappies, Ablett filling in, and He himself having to fill in. And ignoring Wigan being a dominant side in 2010 where as Leeds finished 2nd in 08.

Ellis > Tomkins > Ablett. IMO.

Tomkins could go on to be a very good international back rower. He didn't impress me in the 4 nations at the end of last season but then agin who in a white shirt did. I don't think he's ever going to be as good as Gareth Ellis, but they are two different types of players. Ellis is one of the best defenders I've ever seen. He may hav been prone to the odd wrong decision (something highlighted by Tim Sheens when he went over), but he used to fill gaps and make tackles that he just had no right to make. In his time with us he was solid if unspectacular ball in hand, but that doesn't doesn't mean he wasn't effective.
The comparison of Ablett with Tomkins is a much fairer one IMO, with Tokins being a level above Carl as we stand. When Ablett's really in the mood (as he was on Monday), you start to think about England Recognition, but he's got to put that sort of form together more consistently, in the big games.

Hock is back soon as well.... We all know what a t1t the man is but he's one player the Aussies really don't seem to like playing against. An England backrow of Burgess, Ellis, O'Loughlin with Hock off the bench would be the best we could put out (taking into account peak form, I know Hock isn't likely to hit this for a while) IMO.

You must've missed the two back to back games where he made 40 tackles each game.

Does he not score enough tries for your liking? You should try watching something other than the tryscorers.

You've had some reasoned responses but, in reality all your opinion (to which you're entitled) deserved was a

I think you're being overly harsh on Delaney here. He offers attributes which are stronger than any of the 3 you mention. He is the strpngest runner and hardest to put down of the 3. After Ablett he probably runs the best lines of anyone. He also defends strongly and would be more suited to defending further in. He offers a lot more impact IMO in a big game than Clarkson, certainly off the bench. CC is undoubtedly a great prospect, and a good player in his own right but if you compare there contributions ball in hand at Wembley last year, it was Delaney who looked like a strong running second rower.

He reminds me very much of Chris McKenna (which I've said before) in the way he came over as a centre, struggled to be creative in that postion but had all the attributes of a 2nd rower. McKenna played an important part in our success and I'd like to think Delaney could be the same.

Having said all that I'd leave him at centre for the forseeable future. If we get bodies back it's an option to consider but as we don't have any 3/4 at the moment I'd rather see Ablett develop as the international 2nd rower I believe he could be, than be shunted to centre...again!

Next year I'd like to see us sign a NRL centre with more pace and skill as I think this is by far our biggest need. Ideally then Watkins would start at centre with BJB at full back and a combination of Hall, Smith, Hardaker on the wings.

Ablett's progress has been massively hindered by playing out of position, injuries and the odd suspension at various points in career when he seemed to be hitting form. His game IMO is a lot more comparable with Ellis than Tomkins. I think he's one of the best players in the league who hasn't been a feature in international squads.