I agree OF Roby by plenty i think the Kiwis and Aussies did enough to snuff out Graham ,Ellis and Burgess although they can walk away from the tour with their heads held high.

You wouldn't have a clue who I go and watch.

Is it Leeds?

He took issue with the WIgan fan claiming Hall was "lazy and makes too many mistakes" which is, frankly, either a troll or, being politically correct, ill informed opinion because, whatever his displays in this tournament, he is neither lazy nor makes too many mistakes.

He is is arguably England's best winger so the initial statement laughed at by the Wigan fan was not defensive or one club mentality at all, but the Wigan fan's response was.

Nice to see the knives out for Hall based upon some pretty abject team displays in a pretty poor and mis-matched squad coached by a pretty clueless buffoon. How anyone could expect any winger to shine in such circumstances is beyond me. I take it on the same basis people have now concluded Tomkins is garbage based upon his pretty oridinary displays in our very ordinary England team?

Absolutley.

Ellis and Burgess didn't look out of their depth like some but still were a little dissapointing.

The problem for players like Burgess and Ellis is that they are having to play roles for England that they don't for their clubs, and are also far easier to target given the abject nature of England's 'attack'. I suspect both would look absolutely devastating playing for Australia rather than England.

I agree with your comments re Hall, but Tomkins is not as good as many make out both internationally and domestic. He was part of a team that wore the opposition down physically and mentally with tactics that rightly or wrongly helped them dominate throughout the season. His decision making is questionable, and his attitude is out of place on a rugby pitch. Give him any other jersey and he would look abject at best. The fact that he looked so bad playing in these internationals, yet will probably be chosen to play in the next international is, I suppose, more a reflection on the choice processes of the England coaches, based on how they performed within their club.

Unfortunately the England coaches never look at the bigger picture. Yes pick a player that works well in a team, but if that teamwork can't be utilised with another set of players, then their club skills are irrelevant. I realise it is probably quite difficult to ascertain how to find out how well a player will adapt to playing in a different team. Probably the simplest way of realising this would be to play regional games such as yorks, lancs, cumbria, etc, although with the one club players only playing for their 'local' team, it could be difficult to mix it up very much. You could obviously only pick players that originate from that region though, although perhaps the inclusion of NL1 players could open up the player pool generally.

I agree I've often thought that many of the Aussies that we laud over here - particularly in the pack - only look good because of the team they play in.
Mark Carroll anyone? Or for us Backo.
Ellis & Burgess didn't go from being arguably the best in their positions in the world, ie the NRL, to ordinary in the space of 3 weeks. Despite McNamara's best efforts.

He was clearly a stand out player for Wigan this year. I'd be confident in saying they would not have achieved top spot and a Grand Final win without him as part of their squad.
He'd look outstanding in any club side.
Don't let a poor team display for an overmatched (we just don't have strength in depth. Whilst I'm not suggesting we'd have won this, Morley, Peacock and one of Mcguire/Eastmond in there would have helped make a bit more space) fool you. And I have to think it's the internationals you are basing your opinion on, because it just can't be the club season, where he's been outstanding.

I think you've been listening to too much Eddie and Stevo! I am basing my opinions on the whole season. I think he has quite a lot of weaknesses. He doesn't look outstanding in any side, as proven by the internationals. He is made to look good by quite a few of the other players in the wigan side, although I'm sure there are plenty of players like this in every club.

Sam Tomkins is an outstanding individual talent, arguably one of the best broken field players with ball in hand in SL.

He's benefitted from playing in a successful side with good players around him, much as the likes of Danny McGuire and Leon Pryce have done during their careers for example.

The next step for Tomkins is to harness that individual ability into a team structure at international level, whether it's from full back or in the halves. Still a bit too much headless chicken and not enough vision from him at times, but he's the best option England have in either position IMO.

Really?

I didn't see any attempt to rebut either of those statements, just a foaming at the mouth rant about the Wigan club and its fans.

Looks very much from where I'm sitting like a Leeds fan taking offence at negative comments about a Leeds player and trying to turn the argument into an inter-club one rather than one about what Ryan Hall did and didn't do.

Eddie and Steve? We're talking Tomkins and Wigan, not Wellens and Saints.
Which are the great players in Wigan that are making him look good, rather than been made to look good by Tomkins?

Didn't realise you were a Wigan season ticket holder, by the way

from where im sitting i can tell you it wasnt and as seen as i know what i ment you will have to take my word for it. unless you know my own thoughts better than me.

So what specifically did you say about Hall's performances, you might have to point it out to me in detail.

You know, before you started going off on one about Wigan fans...

i made clear my thoughts in my second post. your right i have had a bit of a rant about some of wigans fans who are frankly delusional after their recent success. i wasnt defending hall at all really, what i dont understand is how he could be singled out or laughed at when you look at the whole squad wigan players included. hall been accused of been error prone or lazy didnt sit well with me in the context of the whole tour as he didnt get chance to prove himself against the best teams. especially when in my opinioin we gifted the game to australia with school boy errors many of them in our own 20 which is unforgivable. how anyone can give hall stick after that debarcle is beyond me. if i came across as defencive thats maybe why.

Personal opinion based on the performances I have seen at Headingley and on Sky. You have to admit that Eddie and Stevo absolutely love Tomkins and get off over him whenever he graces the pitch in front of them.

I'm not saying he's useless, but I don't think he is international quality, and I don't think he would look outstanding in many club sides let alone any. He's obviously worked well with the Wigan players around him who were able to cover for his deficiencies, what will happen next season with a very different looking Wigan side could be very similar to his performances in an England jersey.

Just to prove that I don’t have a vendetta against him, list the qualities of a good stand-off and team player and tick which ones he fulfils.

Right....so it's not an opinion based on a whole season as you earlier suggested.
I can understand Eddie and Steve (and any Sky studio guest) praising Tomkins, after all, he is very good.

Why don't you think Tomkins would look good in other club sides?

His numbers for scoring, assists, ground gained, tackles and lack of missed tackles are all very good. It's when you watch him live that you really realise how good he is. In the Grand Final for example, every single time he took a pass coming around the back of a dummy runner, his pace and ability to go outside or cut back, or pass either outside or inside, put complete panic into the Saints defence.



P.S. He's a fullback, not a stand-off nowadays. Although in the modern game, the ball playing fullback, featuring as an extra standoff, has largely replaced the ball playing loose forward, as teams put another runner in the loose forward position. Wigan are a little unusual though (off the top of my head, we're the only other team that play like this) in playing halves at 1, 6, 7, 9 and 13.

When did I suggest anything different to my opinion based on a whole season? My opinion is based on the whole season, and his international performances cemented my opinion.

I don't think he would look good because of the reasons stated on my numerous posts on this topic.

Trying to demean my posts by suggesting he is a full-back not a stand-off when he played both over the season (with a number 6 jersey, and internationally is a poor attempt to win an argument.

You haven't listed the qualities of a good stand-off yet, and seen as you play halves at 1, 6, 7, 9 and 13, it is irrelevant whether he is playing stand-off or fullback. List them and tick them, how many do you get. Squirming around on the floor crying wolf isn't a quality either.

I think Tomkins is a good player, but he is over-rated. Not in the sense that he doesnt have the ability, in the sense that a lot of people rave about him as the complete package when he hasnt yet fulfilled his potential.

His decision making at times can be appalling, his attitude worse. When in a 'hole' rather than dig in as part of the team he has a tendency to force it at completely the wrong time. I think as well he needs to up his kicking game (both long and short) and his passing/organisation skills if he is to make even a decent career at stand-off, or his positioning, and defensive skills, as well as the when is the right time to show his attacking skills if he is to make a fullback.

I think that is the problem, people talk about Tomkins as if he has already made it world class, imo i dont think he is close, all he has done is show he has the potential to be world class (which is no mean feat).

I would also say that if he does it will be at fullback, i dont think he would make even Mcguire's level at S-O

You said you only saw when he played on Sky. What proportion of the games was that?
I thought it a bit odd you stuck to SO, when he played 2.3 of the 3 internationals at fullback. Maybe you didn't watch all the internationals either?

Maybe you see different requirements of a stand off and fullback to me. In which case me saying what he's good at would be largely irrelevant. How about you say what the qualities are and why you think he doesn't have them, and I'll tell you why you're wrong

After all, I'm not the one claiming a current 21 year old England international, 2009 rookie of the year, two time young player of the year winner, 2009 Dream Team member, isn't international quality and wouldn't look good in anothe rteam.

Can you try to be a bit more descriptive and objective and precise than your criticisms so far of "questionable decision making" (what decisions? When?) and "his attitude is out of place on a rugby pitch" (WTF?!) and the "Give him any other jersey and he would look abject at best" (Why? Which jerseys? Thought he looked pretty good when getting a MOM award for England in October 2009 TBH)

Perhaps not wearing cherry and white shades clouds my judgment? I didn't stick to SO, I know he plays fullback. Seen as his shirt last season was 6, I think it's fair to say that he would regard himself as a SO.

Winning man of the match against Wales is not really an international achievement.

Questionable decision making - running infield 30m on your own try line and being thrown into the in goal area for a forced drop out instead of taking a tackle 5m in (NZ match).

Poor attitude - starting fights with as many players as possible and trapping arms (you can't seriously condone that?!)

I think (remember, my opinion) teams will probably have noticed the above points (just 2), plus others, and would think him too much of a liability. I know I wouldn't want him. I know other Leeds fans that wouldn't want him. I've not said it because he plays for Wigan, or because he doesn't play for Leeds, I've simply identified some of his weaknesses that I think outweigh some of his strengths. I'm not saying he's rubbish, and I'm sure he will mature and develop into a very good player, but at the moment, he is not international quality, and is not the best SO or fullback in SL.

Tomkins imho would be a regular starter at any sl or nrl club. If not one of the first names on the team sheet despite having a poor tour.

That's just my opinion

He's a very good prospect, but he is definitely not the finished article. Its taken McGuire a long time to start to show signs that he can become a very good orthodox stand off without blunting the rest of his game (he still has a way to go with some basics such as kicking though). Tomkins will probably take a long time as well, if he ever does. The sad thing is if he stays in SL he won't get quickly pushed to make the improvements in his game that are clearly required. Why would he need to? GF winner, awards coming out of his ears.