Think Samoa bit more clear in clinical. One way final I’m afraid for Oz…

Kallum had a shocker today unfortunately. McIlorum total rubbish, Bateman anonymous and Welsby not the world beater he seems to think he is.

The right edge was dreadful. Welsby had the worst game I've seen him have, I'm not sure I've seen anyone knock on passing to themselves before. Watkins was probably even worse, the bombed try in the first half was especially poor.

McClorum's basic skills are terrible, his distribution is as bad as Dwyer's

Yep it will be a non event as most of the comp has been unfortunately

Not the quality of last night, but in terms of drama you couldn't (as a neutral) ask for more. Have to say I disagree with the criticism of some of the forwards. They fought hard against a top class pack and were on top in the last 15 mins. It's easy to say the likes of Hill and Mcllorum aren't good enough, but it's a lot harder to come up with players who are better. We didn't lose because of them - that is for certain. Sadly it was a former son of Headingley who was by far the poorest performer. He's done well this tournament, but was dreadful this afternoon. A sad end to dissapointing international career. All that said, it's great to watch international RL, and the game as a whole really needs to embrace it.

Not sure agree with all of that. In terms of Hill and Cooper, easy swap for Lees and Mik who are both in the squad and performance wise were significantly better over the whole tournament. Hooker wise there would be mcshane, leeming, Clark or Akers who is in the squad who I would say are all considerably better than mcllorum.

Welsby should have been full back and snyed in the halves of the plan was kick deep and apply pressure.

England had one plan all tournament which was we get over the top of you with quick play the balls and rush defence. Surprise surprise that as soon as they can’t really get the quick play the ball and get over the top they look all over the place. That is completely down to Wane and his tactics and the players he picked.

Samoa didn’t even go a tactical master class they simply slowed down the play the ball, early on the shifted the contact slightly wider and England just didn’t really seem clear on what to do.

Poor squad selection and poor tactical coaching is the reason England aren’t in the final.

Welsby is a flat track bully. I'd have Myler before him every day.


The new Leon Pryce - World Hide and Seek Champion.

Basic errors in the last 5 mins. Whitehead flinging the ball in the floor with 20s to go in drop goal territory, followed by welsby dropping his own pass to himself then a needless forward pass. Even the intercept was unnecessary. We should have carried on ploughing down the middle.

Said before the tournament we'd get done by Samoa, I just thought it would be the first game. When the going got tough we weren't good enough. Walmsley and Lomax would have improved us, but wouldn't have got us even close to Australia. At least I can enjoy the occasion next week, without the depression that would inevitably have resulted from England getting there. Good for the game that Samoa make the final.

Give over. Things didn't go well for him today, but that's the first time in his short but already distinguished career where he's been average in a big game. At 21, he's still a year younger than Harry Newman. As for Myler being better - have you been in the pub this afternoon?

Absolutely spot on post

Spot on LP.
Selection has done for us today.
Yes, many of the players had bad days, but the selection of Mcilorum over any of those you mention has backfired.
Samoa targeted him and he was found wanting in D and his distribution was awful.
And Lees should have played ahead of Cooper.

Unfortunately, despite the early excitement and optimism, the tournament will be viewed as a failure for England.

But agree with Arthur, great drama for a semi final.

I would have picked Lee's over Cooper. I think Mik is a super player but I don't see any outcry outside of biased Leeds fans (I'm one of them) about his non selection. He had his chance against France and didn't do enough. That's sport. Ackers also got his chance against France and his defence really let him down. Just check out the highlights. McShane has had a few chances in an England shirt and achieved very little. He like many others (including some who played) struggle to make the huge jump from SL to top class test match Rugby. Ultimately it's still the same as it been for 40 odd years I've been watching - we just don't have anywhere near enough world class players.

Can’t argue mate. There is hope though because I genuinely think we have some super talent coming through the system who should be ready for the next World Cup or even test series.

Wane has basically gone for loyalty and past reputation over current form and got found out today. Sadly I’m not sure any current Leeds player would have made a difference.

England need to develop a world class player or two in key positions; hooker being one.

Yep. Hopefully from a Leeds perspective we'll have Mik, Tom H, Gannon and Newman involved in the near future. It's a damming indictment on the last decade that there are no England regulars in the current team. In terms of halves and hookers our best chance is young players following the likes of Farnworth and Young and going straight to the NRL. Depressing but true.

I think a few above have hit the nail on the head. I personally think he went for loyalty and experience over those who have been playing well and have been in form. You mentioned Mik against France but he was in the dream team and where was Hill? Lees has performed mikes better than Cooper who has been average for wire and Wigan.

Mcllorum hasn’t been in the top 5 English hookers in super league this year.

Yes we need better players, especially in key positions. But generally the players in form who have played well all year should in my opinion be in the team.

Think we'll just gave to agree to disagree. I'm no Mcllorum fan. He's an absolute grub of a player, but the fact is (in my opinion) none of the hookers you mention are clearly better. Leeming, for instance, is no longer first choice at Leeds. The sad truth is that the best hooker in the league by a country mile no longer plays test rugby. He would have made a difference today. As for Wane, I've no doubt he'll eventually join the mountainous heap of ex England/GB coaches who just didn’t pick the right players. Funny that.

Where are all these players? I don’t see any in SL who would make a great difference. The game down under is light years ahead.

I fully agree with that. Our best players need to play against better players in the best competition to if they are to improve and challenge the Aussies.

An absolute shambles, overlooked by a woeful coach sat up in the stand ranting and raving. The selection of Micky Mac was a predictable disaster his distribution from the PTB was slow he hasn’t the speed to scoot out similar to Roby. As a result of this the forward drives were predictable and slow. Hill and Cooper are too old for high octane test match rugby. Watkins mentally slow and physically slow, Bateman has had a poor season at Wigan. No certain why Wane thought he would improve in test match rugby. Compare the passing and movement between yesterday’s game and Friday nights game. Obviously a startling difference. Sadly if we had have met Australia in the final, potentially could have been a 50/60 point demolition.

Wane going on about composure in the post match press conference whilst looking anything but composed as he burst a blood vessel in the stands during the game.

a one dimensional coach with very little tactical nous picks players who arent good enough.
only one thing was going to happen once they met a decent team

To be fair Wane's also stuck with the perennial problem of not enough class players. While some of those mentioned didn't play well, there aren't exactly a horde of obviously better players not getting a game. On the plus side Welsby, Farnworth and Young look good and are young enough to be around for years. We desperately need a halfback who can kick, and our hooker needs to be better.

We had no decent kicking game, and as ever we seem to be incapable of playing without a ridiculous number of dumb mistakes. Not to mention our defence wasn't great. We would probably have been really exposed by Aus in the final, as I expect Samoa will be.

Speaks volumes that Newman if he was fit would be the only Leeds player seriously in the running for a spot in the England starting side. Oledzki might have done marginally better than some of the forwards Wane picked, but maybe not, and he certainly wouldn't be an automatic pick.

we had a halfback with an excellent kicking game in the squad.
he wasnt picked

He's also not a very good halfback.

I would imagine the reason he wasn't picked is that his defence and running game are not up to it at international level. Lomax would have made a difference, but he was sat at home resting his bicep when he should have been doing that months ago. When I looked at the squad and likely team some of the names raised my eyebrows: Tomkins, Mcllorum, Watkins, Hill and Hall should all be yesterdays men, but then you ask yourself "who else"? The list of candidates is thin to non existent. The England/GB coach always gets it in the neck from fans but generally the man at the top is well qualified. Wane, Bennett, Smith, Noble and Waite all had an established pedigree of success at club level or beyond. Fans (like me) who don't watch every game every week, don't understand the finer technicalities of the game, and don't see the players performing side by side in training, then howl about selection. Mal Reilly was the last national coach who was popular. He had the likes of Hanley, Schofield, Edwards, Gregory, Edwards, Newlove, Connolly, Offiah, Robinson, Davies, Betts and Clarke at his disposal. Until we start producing truly jnternational class players again we'll continue to be also rans.