To be honest, I'd rather have no Leeds players in the England squad.
They deserve a rest

I could be crap playing in the NRL just like Ratboy, does that mean that I should be ahead of Hardaker at FB as well? He's been garbage in the NRL and is up against the MoS so he should be dropped. Widdop and Gale should be 6 & 7.

There are a few selection I don't agree with at all. Smith shouldn't even be getting picked to play for Hunslet Hawks never mind being Englands first choice scrum half, Ferres is there just to make up numbers,Westwood the same, cudjoe is probably last resort at centre for me I don't rate Ben Currie at all and I can't stand Bateman and I don't think he's anything special

Drop all of them then bring in Shenton, Ablett, Mcguire, Cuthbertson, Singleton (for experience) And I think Watts deserves a place

Also get the captaincy away from o'loughlin Graham would be a much better choice

I will continue to regard McGuire as a no 6 not a scrum half.
Personally I'd sooner see him have a full off season than play in a meaningless series vs the Kiwis.
I don't rate Matty Smith either & would rather see Widdop & Tomkins at 6 & 7 with Hardaker at FB.
Of the those I'd consider a true scrum half Gale has been the best English qualified player in that position this season.

The Leeds scrum half played him off the park last night.

he was superb and has been generally all season.Big game player as proved again, and my odds of 14/1 for him to pick up the Harry Sunderland award last night were too good to pass up

Cuthbertson's father was born in Warrington and IMO that puts him as being eligible for England selection,You clearly didn't know this by mentioning his mothers cat's birthplace did you?

Or are you just stupid?

Yes i did know that but he is about as English as Inglis. If a dog was born in a stable you wouldn't call it a horse would you. He was born and raised in Oz, sees himself as an Aussie and will go back over there when he has finished at Leeds.

Good player - Yes.
English - No
Do England really need him anyway - Probably not

If you previously knew Where his father was born then why did you fail to mention it and preferred to mention the mothers cat's birthplace?
How do you know that he will go back to Oz?
How do you know he sees himself as an Aussie?

All those saying Tomkins has been crap in the NRL, have you actually watched him? Because he really hasn't. He's been injured for a lot of this season so there's not much to take from it but in 2014 he was certainly good enough. The NZW fans loved him and believed they were a much better side with him in it.

I don't really see why it has to be either or with Tomkins/Hardaker, the aussies don't have all these crying and moaning over Slater and Inglis. They can both be accommodated and both deserve to. If Tomkins plays Fullback and Hardaker is in the centres then so what? tbh I'd wager that some of the Leeds players might like a rest after this season.

The fact of the matter is Tomkins has proven himself to be class, whilst his defence is not as good as Hardaker's his attack is better in every way (actually maybe not his pace anymore but we'll see) and one dodgy season, due to injury, in a struggling side in the top competition doesn't mean he's overrated and a player.

The aussies have certain lynchpins in their team who are selected every year even though other players may have had better form during the season, Tomkins is one of those for England as is Hall, Roby, Graham, O'Loughlin, Westwood.

Not sure what's gone on with Cuthbertson tbh. He's certainly more English than Rangi Chase ever was. Other England national teams don't seem to have these qualms with the 'integrity of the national side', look at the England cricket team!

It's annoying when players come about with really tenuous links because they can't get in the side for the country they were actually born in, but I'd say one of your parents being English is certainly enough!
England would definitely be better off with him in the side, yes in the NRL he wasn't good enough to get selected for Australia but he looks like an entirely different player and there's some very logical reasons to explain that other than, SL is an 'easier competition'.

Although in principle I agree with you, Hardaker is not a good centre !! His qualities (great kick returns, safety under the high ball and brilliant last line of defence are not things that can be best shown in the centres - he can't pass too good either).
Much better to play Hardaker at FB and have Tomkins in the halves IMO (alongside Williams).

However, best of all I'd rather Hardaker, Watkins and Hall not be selected: they need a good close season rest rather than play in these meaningless matches. Ditto glad Cuthbertson got 'overlooked'

Anything to back this up?

From my understanding NZ Warriors fans thought he'd be better than he actually was and were initially disappointed.

Matty Smith, a poor man's Paul Deacon. And Deacon was nowhere near international class. Even the Wigan fans have finally turned on him.

Twitter mainly (not a reliable source I know) and I have kiwi relatives who've said similar. Some probably were disappointed, but he couldn't play the same way he did at Wigan. NZW are a totally different machine (and not a dominant side) and he had to play second fiddle to Shaun Johnson most of the time who seemed reluctant to give him a pass. Johnson, incidentally, is such an odd player he's outstanding internationally but at club level looks like a headless chicken half the time.

I may be slightly biased but I actually have watched the majority of his games and he was still breaking the defence, setting up tries and confusing defences all the over the shop.
I'm just betting that the majority who are saying he was a failure in the NRL and couldn't hack it, didn't actually watch him very often, if at all.

I call bull on a few of your points. Tomkins has been garbage and nowhere near lived up to the price tag. If Warriors have been happy with him they'll be cartwheeling to matches next year with Tuivasa-Scheck. When he has been injured they have looked no worse for having Lolohea at 1. He's had no support game through the middle, instead playing like a 2nd 6 and he's probably been the worst defensive fullback in the comp. He hasn't been on the level of the Munsters, Tedesco's, Whitens and Moylans without even considering the top level 1's in the NRL like Slater, GI, Boyd, Dugan and Tuivasa-Scheck.-
Next point about Shaun Johnson. Headless chicken? Really? He single handedly dismantled several defences with his step and dummy when they looked out of options as well as offering them structured play and a cracking kicking game.

Okay thanks for that. Like I've said he was injured for a lot of this season, hence explaining a large part of his form, he's barely had chance to get going and it still remains true that NZW don't play him correctly. It's infuriating to see him never get the ball in a decent position, (as Johnson just overlooks him) his passing has still been excellent and he's still set up or at least had a hand in several tries this season. I'm a Melbourne fan and if you think that Cameron Munster is a better fullback then that just shows how utterly ridiculous you are being.

I was mainly talking about 2014 in regards to him apparently being a failure but okay.
About Johnson, that's why I said half the time. He is either on fire or clueless I was just making a comparison with his international form. I completely disagree with him offering structured play!

Tomkins was never going to live up to the price tag as NZW are a poor team that Tomkins just doesn't fit in with.

I'll not bang on about it anymore because I don't really need to justify how good Tomkins is as he'll do that himself when people actually start watching him again next season. Although they probably still won't because some fans are so blinkered they can't see talent when it's right in front of them.

Tomkins and Hardaker will both play for England and the side will be better off for it.

Sorry, I lied about stopping there.
I'll just back up my point with a few stats, every loves those. Whilst his defence was still not great (literally nobody is denying that) his attack in the NRL was far from 'garbage'.
In 2014 he was in the top 15 players in the competition with Tries (14th), try assists (14th), line break assists (8th) and tackle busts (4th). Yes there's been a season since but injury etc. The point is, he certainly wasn't garbage.

I think ToffeeLady's got a crush on Sam.

Wasn't there a recent stat where he made only 24m in 80 minutes ?

Personally for me I would have Tomkins at HB and Zak at FB. It's more to do with I think we will get a better performance from Sam at HB than we would Zak in the centre if that makes sense.

I agree Sam is a fantastic talent as is Zak. Equally as fans blinkered about sam. There are the same number being blinkered about Zak

Here's a snip from a post I put on a previous Hardaker/Tomkins debate towards the end of the NRL regular season... Think Tomkins played 1 more game after these stats, and managed to eventually fall over the line for a try....




How anyone can seriously justify picking Tomkins at fullback over Hardaker is unbelievable.... Tomkins either moves to the halves or doesn't get a game for me - the 2013 Tomkins no longer exists, and I'd argue that the 2014 version wasn't much better than today's..... A quoted above - Hardaker by plenty (though I'm happy to see him sit out the tournament and rest up for what will be a huge challenge at club level in 2016).

Whilst his open field running was (2013) excellent, Tomkins defence is poor and he can't catch. 1 out of 3 key attributes makes him a poor fullback in comparison to Hardaker. Add to the fact that, for whatever reason, be it injury, home sickness or whatever else, he hasn't been the player he was for 2015.

Of course, he's the ideal first choice England full back!

Seriously though, if, as has been suggested by ToffeeLady his key skills are running and passing, shouldn't Tomkins be playing at 6, or maybe even centre, rather than suggesting ZH is played there?

I reckon McNamara will pick him but it should be Zak at 1, Widdop at 6 and Gale at 7. That's not just on form but Ratboy looks like a shell of the player that tore up Super League and could do with a season where he's the main man at Wigan before a recall.

Hardaker should be fullback. Tomkins strengths can be utilised in the halves. If you have a defensivley weak full back it will be exposed at that level. Hardaker is one of the best defensive fullbacks around, he saves tries he has no right to, but he also offers good attacking threat.

The team will be better with hardaker at fullback and tomkins in the halves.