Quote ="tvoc"What had Huddersfield, Leeds and Warrington won of late before Tony Smith took control at those three perennial under-achievers? '" What did he do at Huddersfield exactly, yo-yo from Super League back up again, Wow. Some could look at his timing, he came to Leeds when the core group of Academy lads had already been introduced to the first team, plus got the luxury of big signings like Peacock, Webb, Ali, Ellis. Signings that aren't do-able today due to the differences in SC with the NRL. He moved onto Wire who were likewise making the big signings, noticeable how the big signings have dried up over there in the last 2 off-seasons and now they're being labelled impotent in attack and easily repelled. Quote ="tvoc"What did Brian McDermott achieve in London before he took control of a set of Champion players at Leeds?'" Not much but I'm fairly certain neither would Smith without big signings. Maybe McDermott would've gained promotion back to SL like Smith did at Hudds except he never got them relegated to find out. Will fully expect Smith to be sniffing around the Salford job should Noble not cut it with the Doctor. Quote ="tvoc"According to Opta Peacock made 54 tackles with 2 missed - www.superleague.co.uk/report/9915'" Delightful, let the Sky interviewer know his mistake. Ask him to quit his job if he stands by the number 60.

Quote ="tvoc"What had Huddersfield, Leeds and Warrington won of late before Tony Smith took control at those three perennial under-achievers? '" What did he do at Huddersfield exactly, yo-yo from Super League back up again, Wow. Some could look at his timing, he came to Leeds when the core group of Academy lads had already been introduced to the first team, plus got the luxury of big signings like Peacock, Webb, Ali, Ellis. Signings that aren't do-able today due to the differences in SC with the NRL. He moved onto Wire who were likewise making the big signings, noticeable how the big signings have dried up over there in the last 2 off-seasons and now they're being labelled impotent in attack and easily repelled. Quote ="tvoc"What did Brian McDermott achieve in London before he took control of a set of Champion players at Leeds?'" Not much but I'm fairly certain neither would Smith without big signings. Maybe McDermott would've gained promotion back to SL like Smith did at Hudds except he never got them relegated to find out. Will fully expect Smith to be sniffing around the Salford job should Noble not cut it with the Doctor. Quote ="tvoc"According to Opta Peacock made 54 tackles with 2 missed - www.superleague.co.uk/report/9915'" Delightful, let the Sky interviewer know his mistake. Ask him to quit his job if he stands by the number 60.

To be fair, Smith had already had us in two Grand Finals a challenge cup final and a WCC final before Peacock and Webb had arrived.

As for these signings not happening any more due to SC. For Webb seen Bowen, for Ellis see Bateman or Hansen. Signings are very much still there if clubs take that option.

Don't forget Smith still won CHallenge cups at Wire, and had them in two GF. Luck plays a part many times, and just like had Saints not suffered injuries against us the other year, Wire would have won last year year without injuries striking them bad in the game. You seem to over look this, but I suppose it doesn't suit the agenda.

When McDermott comes close to anything with his own team, and FWIW I think this year could be called his own, then you may start to have a relevant point.

i agree with everything except the last point. smith had powells team, bluey had smiths team and BM had blueys team.
they were all lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time. thats life sometimes

Top is Alker but Houghton gets close semi regularly. He's a machine.

[code+------+-------+------------------+---------+------+------------+------------+------+
| year | round | name | tackles | home | home_score | away_score | away |
+------+-------+------------------+---------+------+------------+------------+------+
| 2010 | 12 | Malcolm Alker | 69 | CAS | 30 | 12 | SAL |
| 2012 | 16 | Chad Randall | 67 | WAK | 24 | 6 | LON |
| 2012 | 14 | Danny Houghton | 66 | LON | 12 | 14 | HFC |
| 2011 | 12 | Ian Henderson | 63 | CAT | 8 | 8 | BRA |
| 2011 | 13 | Danny Houghton | 63 | HFC | 24 | 24 | STH |
| 2011 | 3 | Craig Fitzgibbon | 62 | HUD | 20 | 10 | HFC |
| 2013 | 7 | Danny Houghton | 61 | HUD | 24 | 10 | HFC |
+------+-------+------------------+---------+------+------------+------------+------+[/code

He did enough to attract the attention of arguably the biggest under-achievers of the previous thirty years and turned the club into winners again. Few clubs can become successful without being led by a quality coach. Those that have followed at Headingley still owe a large debt to the coach that transformed the potential into achievement.



They can't both be right - even though Opta is usually credited as being the source for the Sky stats.

The same Sky stats that last week during the Fulltime show had Watkins scoring three tries at Hull KR.

Yes that is true he did attract the attention of the Leeds club........so did McDermott obviously if he was hired too.

Bowen whilst good over in NRL has come over here as he's about to turn 32. Webb started here only aged 26 with his best still ahead. Bateman isn't yet 21 and doesn't even have 50 SL games under his belt and is still a 'potential' whereas Ellis was 24 his first year at Leeds and had already played for GB a few times. Hansen, a good SL player but I don't think many would've been fussed if we signed him (especially considering he wasn't OOC so it cost Salford a bit to get him). Neither of those comparisons are very good IMO and of course they were no comparisons available to make for Peacock or Ali.



So I overlook injuries to other teams? Note Leeds' injuries last year, yet I know you'll say they were the fault of the coach. Whereas Wire and Saints are down to bad luck......what was that about an agenda?



Well he won the 2012 GF with 10 of the 17 different to the team who won under McLennen. And only 4 of that 17 played in the same positions (Hall, Peacock, Leuluai, JJB). Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow have altered positions, Kirke was used in the 2nd row back then and Bailey started at Loose Forward compared to sub prop Ablett did shift to centre but granted he'd done that in 2008 GF.

Only 3 players are out and out the same from the Smith's final season, Leuluai, Peacock and JJB, others might still be here but are used differently or were only just breaking in like Ablett and Hall. So the team has seen a transition but it's just not solely in changing faces.

The transition back to that of being under achievers again is progressing well under this coach.

Watch how the starting hooker will be back in the halves next week if Sinfield is absent.

Indeed, McDermott has now gone nearly 17 months since we last won silverware. Still got a bit to go until he reaches the 32 month gap Smith endured from WCC '05 to GF '07.

Is this one of usual threads where you move the goalposts every time there is a counter argument?

You made the point about the reason we would not see these players was because of the salary cap and finances. Well both Bateman and Hansen have being signed for similar transfer fees to Ellis, and both on similar wages





Please, come on, your not seriously suggesting the scenarios were the same? You are better than that. One was injuries of his own influence, and continued to play injured. The others were injuries in the one game that mattered, much different to the point you are trying to make.

It's the same with all clubs, Leeds fans with BM, saints with Brown, Wigan with Wane, Warrington with Smith, wakey with Agar... Experience on the internet is counted in posts not hours on the training field, hmm wonder whod be better placed to coach a team though, tough one that.

I think McDonald is underrated. I thought he was outstanding in 2004.

What would the club need to achieve this year to change your mind?

Tony Smith ended a 32 =#FF0000year wait for a Championship at Headingley and had Leeds playing an attractive brand of rugby seldom seen of late, gawd help us if Brian McDermott is allowed to stay long enough to end an even longer drought than that. Had Leeds ever finished 1st on a top division table before they did it under Smith's leadership in 2004?

Before Leeds Smith took the rubbing rag that was Huddersfield RL turned them around and set them on the path to where they are today and since Leeds he's taken Warrington from a 10th placed finish to a top three in his first full season in charge while retaining the Challenge Cup that he and they also won the previous campaign. The 2009 Challenge Cup ended a Warrington drought in that comp that even exceeded the Leeds Championship drought prior to 2004. In 2011 Warrington topped the table for the first time in almost thirty years and they have maintained on average a top two finish in his four full seasons in charge.

Smith has shown at three clubs what effect employing a quality coach can bring - on and off the field. McDermott IMO has yet to prove he's capable of reaching that same standard.

So Smith is responsible for Hudds now too? Haha.
Yes he did win with Leeds and Wire, but he was given the great tools to work with. Had he taken over in 2000/2001, maybe not so much, coupled with Bradford, Wigan and Saints being stronger then. Once Saints got their act together after a very poor 2004 league campaign they topped Leeds three years running in the league. Bradford had their last hurrah and snatched the 2005 GF when Terry Newton had laid it on a plate for us with taking out some Saints players. Wigan ended up fighting relegation during Smith's year. We let other under-achievers like Hull and Hudds deny us in the CC and Wire in the 2006 playoffs. At least McDermott hasn't been knocked out of competitions by pretenders.

Did I say that or did I say this -

Before Leeds Smith took the rubbing rag that was Huddersfield RL turned them around and set them on the path to where they are today

"Set them on the path to where they are today" pretty much sounds like he's getting credit for Hudds.

He turned Huddersfield around and set them on the path.

Look at where they were before he arrived and look at where they were when he left.

Good coaches tend to leave clubs in a better state than that in which they found them - Smith's legacy is secured at two clubs and it's difficult to see how he won't repeat with his current club.

In the interests of balance I am sure you also meant to say that in Smiths first year at Huddersfield they were relegated and the turn around started the next season when McDermott joined Smith as assistant coach and gained promotion. You will say it was a coincidence of course that the turn around and being set on the path to where they are today was nothing to do with his assistant coach.

You I am sure also meant to say that when Smith came to Leeds he brought with him McDermott as his assistant coach. (who you will recall had nothing to do with the turn around at Huddersfield or the promotion gained after McDermott joined as assistant coach) McDermott also of course played no part in the Leeds turn around either and is not rated by the players that were there under Smith or indeed now.

So are you suggesting Brian McDermott makes a better assistant coach than head coach?

For anyone who questions just how dire that Huddersfield outfit were in SL 1998 to 2001 (Huddersfield-Sheffield for one of those years) after the RFL had promoted the McAlpine Stadium to the top flight consider how few of their 109 Regular Round fixtures they took both points from?

Smith arrived with very little (bar the use of a shiny stadium) to work with and had to start to rebuild the club from the basement up and a year outside the top flight was an integral part of that journey - one the RFL had denied the lamentable Huddersfield in successive years of propping up the rest.

He got relegated, got promoted, finished 10th from 12, with over half their points coming from wins against the 2 below them which included the woeful Halifax who only won 1 game all year so hardly much to brag about beating them. That leaves them being better than Wakey for 1 season. Hardly can claim to set them on the path.

Hudds success is more to do with Ken Davy and him bringing in better players (only 3 of the 17 who played in 2006 CC Final played under Smith)

Anyone you speak to at Huddersfield acknowledges that it was Tony Smith who began the turn-around at the club. To deny that is to deny what is pretty much obvious. Plenty of more credentialed coaches were there before him with better squads and failed to achieve anything. He turned the club and its culture completely around.

I have some sympathy for ThePrinter's views on Tony Smith, even if those views are being used in support of a Pro Brian McDermott agenda.

Tony Smith is always going to be regarded as a hero among most Leeds fans for being the coach in charge when the Holy Grail moment occurred in 2004. Any critique of him is always guaranteed to be challenged quite passionately.

However, the club did underachieve massively in 2005 and 2006 and some of his interviews and facial expressions on TV were becoming increasingly bizarre (just like some of his team selections were). Had Leeds not won that 2007 Grand Final, it would have been extremely difficult to speak of a Tony Smith legacy on the back of 3 unsuccessful seasons in a row.

IIRC, when it was announced in 2007 that Tony Smith was leaving at the end of that season, the opinion of the vast majority on this forum was one of relief and that it was high time for change at the top. Only with the sudden benefit of hindsight did those views suddenly change on the 13th October 2007 at approximately 7:40pm.

Coaches should move on after 3 years regardless of achievements

Enough water to fill the pacific ocean passed under the bridge between smith leaving and hudds getting good.