In fairness Webb has always been indisciplined, it's a problem many of our players have had, under Smith, McLennan and still under McDermott.

I think the OP made some fair points.

By that logic why can't Lee Smith recapture his confidence and form from winning the Harry Sunderland trophy in 2008?

A winning run that gets all the players into positive habits is just as important in restoring confidence as reflecting on collective past achievements. The defeats to Wigan and Warrington will probably be looming larger at the back of the players' minds than the WCC at the moment.

I rest my case from the second post on this thread.

Fantastic.

I'm not stupid - just lazy.

What's your excuse?

Hi everyone,

- ThePrinter - I agree, I don't think we can be saving ourselves for the second part of the season either, surely we can't be choosing to play badly! I think it's far too early for us to be thinking about next year (though I'm sure the Club are), but again I agree with you that if things remain as they are, it will become too tiring to be winning the league from 5th or below. In terms of this year, obviously 9th is well below par but if we win our game in hand next Monday we will go up to 8th and will only be 2 points below Saints in 4th. It's important not to forget as well that we've played most of our games to date away from home, and we've already played Wire, Wigan and Saints twice. I understand people looking towards Mac for an answer but like I say I really believe that it's desperation which is causing these performances, and I think only the players can choose to let go of this and crack on. The problem is that you can't just drop half the team because then you're not giving anyone a fair chance at winning the next game - not the young players coming through, nor the players you keep. I also think he's right to keep faith in some of the senior players who could click at any time.

- tvoc - I've been waiting for someone to mention London!! London was a completely different situation to what we have at Leeds; guys don't play for London because they want to play there, they play for London because they want to play rugby, the loyalty is just not the same. Nor did they have the salary cap budget that we have (that is not the case this year). The league standings alone do not tell the story of that particular season, and where I have cited previous standings I have tried to tell a bit more of a story of that season.

If Wakefield turn us over next Monday, I dont for one minute think the crowd will be cheering the lads on! - Do you?

FFS.....who let Damo log in under this new user name?

London's record under McDermott is indicative of the direction he took them over the course of just over four full seasons and that's a longer spell in charge than any coach has been given at Headingley during the SL Era. Despite what you've said London have charted fairly respectable finishes despite the 'mercenaries' they've recruited during the SL Era prior to Brian McDermott's contribution: 4, 2, 7, 8, 11, 6, 8, 5, 10, 6 - a couple of above average finishes, a couple of below average finishes but overall pretty consistently somewhere in the mid-pack.

McDermott presided over a steady slide down the rankings except for the season they briefly stood still: 7, 9, 9, 11, 13 - Powell at least started to reverse the trend with the 12th placed finish last season although whether that will continue this year remains to be seen.

It's a personal trend McDermott is currently extending at what is one of the supposed have clubs. Can he turn it around? Can a club like Leeds take that chance or even afford to wait and see?

I'd highlight a Regular Round form-line through the clubs Leeds should be judged against, which over this latest switch-coach period have been Wigan, Warrington and St Helens.

2010 - Pl 6, Won 3, Drawn 0, Lost 3, Pts For 127, Pts Agst 161 (avg scr 21 - 27)

2011 - Pl 6, Won 0, Drawn 1, Lost 5, Pts For 108, Pts Agst 202 (avg scr 18 - 34)

2012 - Pl 6, Won 1, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 82, Pts Agst 202 (avg scr 14 - 34)

I'd say that amounts to a worrying record of diminishing returns as Leeds settle back amongst the teams making up the numbers. When Bradford started their slide they went 3, 5, 9, 10, 10 - Leeds have gone 1, 4, 5 and are looking like slipping lower still this season, is that the blueprint we should follow?

Had Tony Smith returned to Leeds in 2011 and coached the club to an identical 5th placed finish, a CC Final and the SL champions, then followed it up in 2012 with victory in the WCC, it would have been regarded by many on here as the second coming of the messiah.

Even 'Lenny the Kirkstaller' would have ditched Jesus for Smith.

McDermott stays IMO... he's earned it.

I can see why you'd say that.

He certainly seems to have made you happier.

Peacock's equal number of penalties given away to Webb's are I imagine more for sloppy technical offences in the many tackles he makes. Does 'Brian' really think that Webb's "agressiveness" in the form of petulant back chat makes up for agressiveness in the forwards ?

What are you talking about?

Since someone pointed out that we were in a similar position last year (getting stuffed by Saints and Wire at this stage of the season by 40 odd points) I have thought well maybe the lads will turn it around again and win matches at the important end of the season. BUT, I still can't get away from the fact that if this is true then the club are expecting fans to pay good money to watch sub-standard performances up to July. How do Leeds expect fans to keep turning up week after week to watch a team playing 2nd rate rugby. Attendances will suffer, having a knock-on effect throughout the club.

Of course Buderus was aggressive, he was on the front foot and made strong tackles infront of the gain line (you don't have to punch people to be aggrssive in rugby). Liam Hood is in his 20's, he's physically ready. Countless players have been brought into the team at this stage and have flourished - countless others have been loaned out recently and then disapeared.

And I'm glad you appreciate my definition of a hooker, anything to help Brian

But I would also add, it you really want to play a half back at 9 then make him a [ibig[/i one like Roby or ...cough...Lowes.

Because thats the business model, it works too, people still pay money for season tickets in the belief that their world will end if they don't.

Does anyone buy a season ticket for The Vue and go to watch every film every week including the ones they don't like ?

Never underestimate the loyalty of your typical sports fan. They keep shelling out the cash, even when their brain tells them they're not getting anything close to value for money.

A season ticket failed to provide value for money when it started offering the equivalent of 2 games free. The last time I purchased a season ticket, there were 15 home games and the season ticket price was the equivalent of paying for 9 and getting 6 games free.

He's doing a pretty good job considering the squad of players he has available to him. I'm sure he'll coach the team to a position lofty enough on the SL ladder to secure a home game in week 1 of the playoffs

Leeds Rhinos are up against it all season because they’re the current Super League and World Club Champions meaning that other teams really get themselves up to play against Leeds. I’m happy as long as Leeds Rhinos play well a couple of times during the season just to give me a glimpse of what to come at the end of the season and in important games. If they win trophies then great.

Brian McDermott has certainly earned his place off the back off a great Challenge Cup run and Super League grand final win last year along the World Club Challenge this year. The current playing standards aren’t pretty at Leeds but you could say that for most of the other super league teams too. Is Brian McDermott and his like responsible for that as well?



I’m around but just keeping a low profile

Hi everyone,

Thanks again for all your replies!

Tvoc – Again, the stats don’t tell the story. Of the 10 rankings you give, 5 of those were outside the play-off places, so not as good as you would have me believe. McDermott’s first season was in 2006 (albeit not a full season), but the Club began to undergo major changes from as soon as 2007 with Ian Lenagan retaining his London shares and yet becoming owner of Wigan. This would suggest to me that Mac did not perhaps have the backing to build the team that he would have liked as no financial investment was made. Several of their key players, such as Henry Paul, were allowed to leave the Club and were never replaced, and then in addition to this they had a number of injuries to key players such as Henry Fa’afilli. With all the success we’ve had over the last 8 years, I am confident that the Club will continue to invest in our team, so the coming years do not concern me at all.

In terms of the 2011 fixtures against Warrington, Wigan and Saints that you quote, I have to admit disappointment in you. The results against Warrington at home and Saints away certainly add some drama to your statistics but we played really well against Wigan at home, losing only in the dying minutes, and we should have beaten them away when Danny McGuire scored (Stuart Cummings publicly admitted that this try should have been awarded). We were also very competitive in the Saints game at home for about 60 minutes, but again a disappointing last 20 lost it for us. We may have lost to Warrington twice in the League, but our performance in the play-offs was outstanding; we won when it mattered. I’m going to repeat myself here tvoc – the stats do not tell the story.

Nantwichexile – I’d be interested to know how many of Webb’s penalties have actually been for dissent, do you know? I thought most were through “sloppy technical offences”.

DHM - Again, thanks for the patronising definition of aggressive. Liam Hood may be 20, but that doesn’t mean he’s physically ready (to be honest, I find that logic a bit strange). You don’t hit an age and suddenly magically become physically ready to deal with older, more experienced players who are ready to batter you – it takes practise and experience which he won’t have had in the under-20s. I also mention above that you have to be mentally able to cope with the change and again, this isn’t something which magically happens overnight, it takes time and experience and I fully believe that with the promise he shows, we SHOULD give him that time. When I talk about bringing players in from the under-20s I talk about phasing them in and for all your patronising, you haven’t been able to tell me why I should change my mind on this.

Finally, some of you have talked about the fans forking out to watch sub-par rugby and whether or not we should cheer the team on. I’m going to reiterate my point that this Club has given us some fantastic memories over the last few years, and frankly I’ll be running off that for a long time to come. I know it’s disappointing to see what we’re seeing at the moment, but who wants to be the one to say “yeah, I didn’t go to the games in the back half of the season after we lost to Wigan and Warrington, but I went to the Cup Final and Old Trafford”. For me personally, I want the right to say at the Final that I WAS there for those games (I'm no early '00s Bulls fan!!) We are SUPPORTERS and we should do just that – SUPPORT. 10 years ago the fans turned up win or lose and I would like to think that most of us will do that now (as I know most of you will).

Some great points - like anything, it never seems such good value for money when we're losing games but considering the success we've had over the past few seasons it's very harsh to start throwing in the towel now on the back of a mediocre mid season slump.

As for McDermott, I remember speaking to some fans after last years Grand Final win who will still wanted him to get the boot - I'm not sure what some fans are expecting tbh



Slightly OT but some of the posts on the Rhinos Facebook page really do reek of the typical arm chair fans who rant to sack the coach but can't back it up with a valid reason nor explanation as to how it would help us for the rest of the season. I think it's just an easy option to blame the coach if i'm honest. It was nice the majority of travelling support last friday were behind the team and coaching staff, and that they recognise the best way to get out of this current slump is through support rather than needless panic and personal attacks.

You have to factor 'hope' into your reasoning. People keep shelling out the cash in the hope of getting value for money.

I'd like to add to all of this (and apologise of it's already been mentioned...) the fact that I'm getting sick and tired of seeing the word "McDumbnut" and other variations of it on these pages. If people don't like the coach and want rid, fair enough - that's their opinion, but do we really need to resort to abusiveness towards a bloke who clearly cares a lot about his job and the club, and is doubtlessly working hard to try and get teh best results for the club? In this particular instance, whether he is "good enough" or not is irrelevant - he comes across as a very decent bloke, and taking the pi$$ out of his name is bang out of order.

Depends upon how you define value.

There is an emotional attachment with being a supporter that you cannot compare with other commodities.

But there's also the social aspect. For me, I've been going to the rugby with my son since about 1995. It's something we do together and it's something we enjoy. I also meet other friends and acquaintances at the match. Some I only now see there. We catch up, chat about the rugby, maybe have a whinge. To be honest, the 80 minutes on the pitch is only a small part of my day/night out.

The are other posters on this forum who meet up in groups and make rugby a large part of their social life. You have been involved in a few yourself in the past. In this age of social retardation brought about by facebook. twitter and internet message boards I think it's a damn good thing. What if Lawrie, for example, refused to see his mates, meet them for a pint until Leeds started winning again?

But, hey, maybe I am a sapp. Maybe life would be better if I sat alone in the dark in front of a computer screen laughing at the silly fools parting with their cash to go out and watch a game of rugby. How clever and superior would I be then?