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Are Leeds the best run club financially in Super League?
Can't see Hetherington embarrasingly begging to fans anytime in the near future.
Long may it continue!
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Ref. mjm. Knowledge of property devolpment by Leeds rhinos board.
Paul caddick is a co owner with others of a highly successful property devolpment company. Based in wetherby trading as oak gate.
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| Quote ="MjM"Have just had a quick flick through the accounts - these cover Leeds CF&A Limited whose principal activity is "the staging of professional Rugby League football". The RU club trades through an entirely separate company.
In the previous year, 2010, Leeds RL made a small loss - primarily as provision was made in that year for the HMRC issue. The lack of this in 2011 has enabled a rebound but the profits of £596k before tax are still quite remarkable in the present environment. The directors' report notes that, the HMRC liability has been "concluded satisfactorily and settlement reached".
The loan of £1.4m remains outstanding from the RU club but has not been provided against despite their quite disastrous financial position. We had £2.23m in the bank although I'm fairly sure HMRC hadn't been paid out at the year end. Once that clears out and assuming the RU club return our cash (or whoever has guaranteed it on their behalf) then it will leave us with the best part of £3m to make a start on the South Stand financing.'"
An excellent synopsis MjM
We are privileged that we have GH in charge of our great club, He runs the club impeccably well from top to bottom
GH has overseen a very succesful period at our club and without the need to spend big money chasing the dream
Wasn't it Russell Crowe who termed the Rhinos as the best run RL club in the world? |
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| Quote ="MjM"It's never become clear but I would have expected that to all have been recognised when it was agreed - so earlier than 2010 (2008 IIRC).
Impossible to say whether they over or underprovided but either way the results over a two year period are still very good given they take the HMRC into account. The 2011 figures are also affected by donations to the Leeds Rugby Foundation (£120k, 2010 £nil), a return of the mysterious management charges payable to Leeds RUFC (£136k, 2010 £nil) and ongoing management charges payable up to the Caddick group of £55k (2010 £55k).
Although there is still an intention to progress with it my guess is that a debate was had with the auditors as to whether it would be appropriate to capitalise any of the presumably not insiginificant architect's, legal and planning costs associated with the aborted S Stand project. A prudent move given the uncertainty of that (to the public at least) would be to write it off through the P&L rather than capitalise it. However there have been £337k additions to Land & Buildings which I can't immediately pin down so maybe not. Separately, the £750k of additions to Plant and Machinery are presumably primarily the new scoreboard and big screen.
My view in previous years has been that Leeds are break even if they don't get to finals and make profits when they do - which is probably the kind of basis that management budget on. It may now be that the company is profitable at a lower level without success rather than just break even.
This isn't a "normal" kind of business that looks for big, consistent profits as there are non-remunerative costs which the club can ramp up or down to a degree relating to local and junior development and the charitable foundation. Certainly, however, Caddick does not give the impression that he is interested in stumping up cash to fund losses at the Rhinos.
The loss of engage sponsorship money is really quite trivial in the overall scheme of things (about £50k per club a year) and more than offset by the recently-increased TV deal and any sub-sponsorships the Stobart deal permits/facilitates.
I'm not sure how you have decided that crowds are in decline as the facts determinedly suggest otherwise.
It has to be agreed, however, that Leeds are a special case. They are an extreme example of the fact that clubs which own and can exploit their own stadia (or other, similar, facilities) have the potential to perform much better financially than those which rent - even when renting is on favourable terms.
I note that Leeds include this year £106k of "Development land" in stock so it may be that the next stage in the business plan is to diversify away from the current reliance on that risky RL market and move into property development
 I understand there is some knowledge of this sector on the board.'"
Thanks MjM for taking the time to look and answer. |
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| Quote ="MjM"My view in previous years has been that Leeds are break even if they don't get to finals and make profits when they do - which is probably the kind of basis that management budget on. It may now be that the company is profitable at a lower level without success rather than just break even.
This isn't a "normal" kind of business that looks for big, consistent profits as there are non-remunerative costs which the club can ramp up or down to a degree relating to local and junior development and the charitable foundation. '"
This is IMHO exactly how a well run sports club should operate...now can someone please explain it to Ken Bates  |
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Thanks MjM for taking the time to look and answer.'"
I'd like to add my thanks as well, MjM. I always appreciate the information and analysis you give on Leeds and others finances.
Can we now describe MjM as "The Financial tvoc"? |
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| Quote ="The Biffs Back"An excellent synopsis MjM
We are privileged that we have GH in charge of our great club, He runs the club impeccably well from top to bottom
GH has overseen a very succesful period at our club and without the need to spend big money chasing the dream
Wasn't it Russell Crowe who termed the Rhinos as the best run RL club in the world?'"
*awaits Rogues to enter discussion explaining how Wigan are in a better position financially and are better run than the Rhinos*
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And when and how will the Union side pay that loan back.
The crowds will drop (not that they can get much lower) and they will only receive £300k from the RFU.
Have they ever made a profit ?
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| Quote ="Him"Can we now describe MjM as "The Financial tvoc"?'" 
Quote ="STEVENM"And when and how will the Union side pay that loan back. The crowds will drop (not that they can get much lower) and they will only receive £300k from the RFU. Have they ever made a profit ?'" Not really sure how RU works but my understanding was that the money would be repaid from the parachute payment the club got from the RFU in their current season. Hopefully it has therefore all come back now and we will not have to fork out in quite such a direct manner again.
What the future holds for Carnegie is anyone's guess but with Caddick reputedly no longer willing to stump up millions of £££ to cover their losses it will be a challenge to keep them going with any credibility. I think there will be an announcement on that front next Monday. |
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RE-Carnegie it's been announced 14 players will be leaving and most are good earners so that will reduce their ££££££ out goings somewhat.
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How close are the RU lot from ruin?
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| Quote ="Lawrie L"How close are the RU lot from ruin?'"
Not close at all, they will simply find a level that allows them to operate within their means, they are still the premier club in most of Yorkshire.
I've been invited to an end of season celebration in the Long Bar - not quite sure what is being celebrated though. |
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"Not close at all, they will simply find a level that allows them to operate within their means, they are still the premier club in most of Yorkshire.
I've been invited to an end of season celebration in the Long Bar - not quite sure what is being celebrated though.'"
True, I mean they still get a few thousand for games I suppose
Bet that will be a dour affair |
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"Quote ="Lawrie L"How close are the RU lot from ruin?'"
Not close at all, '" If "not close at all" involves having a balance sheet deficit of £1.7m then that's super. The club is near the end. |
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| Quote ="MjM"If "not close at all" involves having a balance sheet deficit of £1.7m then that's super. The club is near the end.'"
Which I assume means this has had a major detrimental effect on the funds available to the Rhinos - money which could have been utilised in improving the facilities at Headingley. |
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| Quote ="Omar Little"This is IMHO exactly how a well run sports club should operate...now can someone please explain it to Ken Bates
'"
It's interesting that despite the excellent post by MJM and his excellent follow ups where he continually mentions the name of Caddick, a lot of posters are just simply ignoring that name and instead preferring to put everything down to one man.
Interesting that there was a rumour that Caddick has bought into Leeds United with Ken Bates, and a lot of Leeds United fans getting angry and coming out will all accusations about Caddick. Yet they know absolutely nothing about him, and don't even give time to consider how the Rhinos has been run. |
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| Quote ="Gotcha"It's interesting that despite the excellent post by MJM and his excellent follow ups where he continually mentions the name of Caddick, a lot of posters are just simply ignoring that name and instead preferring to put everything down to one man.
Interesting that there was a rumour that Caddick has bought into Leeds United with Ken Bates, and a lot of Leeds United fans getting angry and coming out will all accusations about Caddick. Yet they know absolutely nothing about him, and don't even give time to consider how the Rhinos has been run.'"
I'm somewhat sceptical that those rumours are just fans putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5. I can't imagine Caddick being daft enough to get involved with KB. Caddick's firm are, however, the building contractor's for the redevolpment at ER (IIRC) . |
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| Quote ="Gotcha"Interesting that there was a rumour that Caddick has bought into Leeds United with Ken Bates, and a lot of Leeds United fans getting angry and coming out will all accusations about Caddick. Yet they know absolutely nothing about him, and don't even give time to consider how the Rhinos has been run.'"
A lot has to be said for GH though. OK Caddick got us out of the problems we had years ago but he doesnt really have much influence with the day to day running of the club as he concerntrates on his main business. GH runs the club essentially |
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"
I've been invited to an end of season celebration in the Long Bar - not quite sure what is being celebrated though.'"
Yeah, I got one of those invites which is strange really, as I've never shown the slightest bit of interest in Union
Are they that desparate that they'd send out tickets to all Rhinos fans? |
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| Quote ="flipper"Super League and World Club champions Leeds Rhinos RLFC have returned to profitability off the pitch in a year when they also reached the Challenge Cup final.
Rhinos experienced an "indifferent first half of the season", according to filed accounts, before romping home at the business end of the campaign.
[url=http://www.insidermedia.com/insider/yorkshire/69349-more here[/url'"
I think there was some degree of irony then having Dougie Laughton on Superleague Supermen talking about his time at Leeds. Respect to the guy for a lot of things, but balancing the books was not on his agenda. |
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John Bateman could be available for 200k according to todays Daily Express, as Bradford may need to sell him to raise the rest of the £1m.
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| Quote ="Frosties."John Bateman could be available for 200k according to todays Daily Express, as Bradford may need to sell him to raise the rest of the £1m.'"
No-one will pay that. He will go for a fraction. |
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| 200k for an 18 year old with less than 20 first team games?  |
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| Quote ="Frosties."John Bateman could be available for 200k according to todays Daily Express, as Bradford may need to sell him to raise the rest of the £1m.'"
Daily Express |
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| Quote ="Charlie Sheen"200k for an 18 year old with less than 20 first team games?
'"
He is quite a talent. What would you sell Stevie Ward for right now? |
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I understand there is some knowledge of this sector on the board.'"
