You are correct that I have become close to Wakefield and some of it's prominent supporters but bias no, I would argue that it is the other way round and you, along with many others, have fallen for this apocryphal tale that the RFL have sold everyone... I have my eyes opened to RFL bias.

As for Cas or Salford then once again you are wrong, they too currently 100% deserve to be in SL and I have argued this form the beginning and I would be arguing just as hard for Salford or Cas, knowing what I now know. Don't get me wrong either, had Crusaders had still been playing where the RFL gave them a franchise to play, South Wales, and were financial fluid, in a quality stadium and pulling in a 4k/5k + average crowd then it should be bye-bye Wakey, Cas or Salford.

But they are not are they mate!

Also, I have no idea what your comment about "it would still be all about Wakey surviving" means. Yep, under the previous ownership Wakefield were a badly run business financially but in most other ways they were doing much right and much more than just surviving. You, like others have short memories!

Jesus, here we go again... l will humour you yet again, but this time some coherent arguments would be good... so here we go...

So what 'good work' is this? Please tell us?

How about bringing young Welsh lads into playing the game? Is that not good work? Or is it only Wakefield that are allowed credit for developing players? And let's not get too carried away on the players developed by Wakefield shall we, its not the magnificent, shining success some Wakefield fans would like to believe it is.

giving young welsh lads a game, the massive leaps and bounds the welsh game has taken since Crusaders began.

In their first season in Wrexham, their 2nd in SL they got 7 attendances over 5k, 1 over 10k, In Wakefields 3rd year, 2001, they got 1(one) crowd over 5k and 0 over 10k. Wakefield got 7 attendances over 5k in the 2001,2002 and 2003 seasons combined and didnt get a single 10K+ attendance until 2006.

seems pretty good to me.

Names please? How many in the current Crusaders first squad 25 are Welsh RL products (you can't have Gareth Thomas for obvious reasons), and to break down even further, are from within an hours drive of Wrexham? In fact, how many lads from anywhere in Wales are playing in SL?

I think that the majority of the lads playing league in Wales are doing so in South Wales and that is great work by the RFL development officers in SOUTH WALES, so why not go back to the original plan and start again?

I imagine because Randall decided not to make a 'meal' out of it.

There should be no place in the game for biting or grapple tackles.

If you want to start this game, how many Wakefield youth products lined up in 2006 when they could have put out a squad which went
Halpenny
Tadulala
Demetriou
Henderson
Evans
Jeffries
Obst
Korkidas
Leo-latu
Watene
Solomona
Catic
Betham

With Macgillivary on the subs bench
This is from Wakefield, a club based in the very heartlands of the game. The Wakefield club which put out a side containing 14 antipodean players and a french man. The side which put out a 17 containing only 2 british players.

Elliott Kear looked pretty decent out there on Saturday. On that showing you have to wonder why the Crusaders have had him out on loan rather than playing and promoting a Welsh youngster making the grade in SL?

Same to you, names please? Just saying it doesn't make it true, lets have the evidence please? Equally, don't forget my argument is not against Wales, far from it, just to refocus back on South Wales and start again... South Wales Scorpions can still continue to give young Welsh lads a game and build for SL in 5+ years with a good talent pool.



Good one, so now please show the average crowds for Warrington, Salford, Castleford and Quins/London, just to name a few, in the same years? Go on, I dare you... sorry, that would make your argument look total rubbish wouldn't it!

Because Iestyn Harris's job is to win as many games as he possibly can as a head coach, which means picking the best starting XIII available to him?

I watched Kear when he played for Hunslet a few weeks ago on Sky and he didn't stand out at that level. On the basis of one decent game against a 35 year old centre playing out of position I wouldn't be tipping him as some sort of future megastar just yet.

Don't be daft Armadillo. You're either so biased in favour of Wakefield that you can't see the wood for the trees anymore or you're being deliberately silly. It is the 3rd year of professional rugby league in Wales in the modern era, how many young Welsh players would you expect to be up to Super League standard after 3 years?
That also has nothing to do with the fact that more young Welsh lads are playing rugby league due to Crusaders inclusion in Super League. Is that good work or not?

Oh so it's all the RFL development officers and nothing to do with Crusaders being in SL? Really? Come on you're not that naive. If you haven't noticed there is a club in South Wales that is in partnership with Crusaders, probably the right way to go about it wouldn't you agree? It provides a pathway all the way up the hierarchy of rugby league.

Since you're so desperate to highlight Wakefield's magnificent contribution to rugby league in recent years, and you want names, would you care to provide this huge list of fully Wakefield developed & trained players currently ripping up Super League? Well there's Gareth Ellis and Ben Westwood and then I'm really struggling...

Why does it make a difference to you whether it is north or south wales? What is your reasoning for giving up what we have in Wrexham to focus on a club with less money, which plays at a lower level, in worse facilities and with less visibility?

Castleford can continue to give young lads from the Wakefield district a game.

Lloyd White, Elliot Kear, Gil Dudson, Jamie Murphy, Geraint Davies,


ok, Warrington got 37(THIRTY SEVEN) attendances over 5k between 2001 and 2003, Castleford didnt have a sub 5k attendance between 2001 and 2003 so had 42(FORTY TWO) 5k+ attendances. Salford had only 5, but they were relegated in 2002 and Quins had only 4

So well done Wakefield were embarrasingly worse than Warrington, Castleford, and relatively Crusaders, but better than a club in London and Salford if we count a season less for them. Yeah, Warringtons 37 and Castlefords 42 attendances over 5k in the same period dont at all make Wakefields pathetic total of 7 look even worse, they definitely helped your argument.

So I will take it that you will not answer my question? You would make a first class politician, you are the King of answering a question by answering the question you would like to be asked, as opposed to the one you were actually asked.

I agree that Wakefield's previous squad management strategy was wrong in many ways, but two wrongs don't make a right and so lets look at the number of 'Wakefield' grown players playing in SL? On a side note, much of that side had Wakefield finishing in 8th in 2007, 8th in 2008 and 5th in 2009... maybe the moral here is spending beyond your means! Also Wakefield's Academy won the Grand Final only 2 seasons ago and now has lots of British lads in it's first team 25, many of them academy or local products and they are effectivley 10th in the league above Crusaders, Hull KR, Bradford and Quins!

Developing young Welsh players with SL potential might also be a prominent part of his remit given we're living in a licensed, salary capped era with no relegation as such to worry about?



Kear made his debut V Leeds at Rodney Parade in 2009 and took out the home man of the match award IIRC. Saturday then would appear be his 2nd decent game when facing Leeds. Perhaps he's rubbish against everyone else though.

Gareth Thomas, Jordan James, Ben Flower, Elliott Kear, Lloyd White, Gil Dudson, Lee Williams and Jamie Murphy are all in the Crusaders first team squad.

Crusaders as a club used 60 Welsh born players during their time in National Leagues One and Two before getting a SL licence.

Still, carry on throwing the "they don't develop their own players" myth around if you think it helps you justify whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Actually, without wanting to sh[ii[/it on your parade somewhat, according to the Wakefield website there are only 5 fully Wakefield trained & developed players in the current first team squad. That is 1 less than Crusaders have Welsh trained players in their first team squad.

Also as Smokey pointed out in Wakefield's 3rd year of Super League, 2001, Wakefield's crowds were relatively poor too, in fact their average was around 3,600. Which is roughly Crusaders current average crowd.

If there were enough good players and enough money to go around to keep Wakefield in SL I'd be happy to. Sadly there isn't, they've had their chance and need to go back for 3 years and prove to everyone that they deserve another chance next time around.

If it made a difference to the RFL why did they not set up in Wrexham or anywhere in North Wales to start with? That is your weakest argument yet! Have less money than the Crusaders... Crusaders only has any money because Sky give them some... and even then they get less then everyone else because they have £700k to pay back




Come on, that is a true politicians answer... lets have the averages please, not just selecting fixtures above 5k... why can't you shown us the averages?

Go on then, name these players ripping up SL who were developed by Wakefields academy and brought through to first team and go on to be good SL players, in your 12 years. Ellis? Westwood? Who else?

Is finishing 8th of 12 an acheivement now?

Wakefield also went into this season with 9 overseas players whilst they were looking to sign a 10th in Hickey which was delayed by the RFL.

if crusaders lose their licence they can still play in the championship, the players they produce are of that level anyway and building a succesful side will help to grow crowds and profile
it's not as if their SL status has helped them gather a shirt sponsor or crowds of any reasonable status or financial stability, huddersfield crowds suffered when they were bottom of the league and getting pumped regularly, when they got relegated they won games and the crowds went up
if the welsh players are good enough they will be snapped up by SL teams anyway so the international game wont suffer

Bingo... you have hit the nail on the head! Where in Wales did they predominately come from? I am not anti-expansion, far from it, but if you were drawing up a list of places to put a SL franchise, Wrexham would be very, very low on the list! Sustainability is the key and I can't see how having a club 2 to 3 hours drive from where the majority of your 'real' target growth audience is and also where you have put most work in over the last decade is good idea. It is time to re-focus back on the original plan. Let Wakefield and Cas get their new stadiums to give them them what they need to either continue in SL as long as they are able but equally improve the Championship longer term if they have to make way for expansion, but in places like South Wales, the North East, the East and West Midlands... you know, where lots of people live, as opposed to a semi-rural market town just in North Wales.

Bridgend - population 39,429
Wrexham - population 42,576

because the RFL didnt set Crusaders up you moron. Leighton Samuel did. Leighton Samuel also owned a stadium in South Wales. He was hardly very likely to pay someone else to use a their stadium in north wales was he.

and more sponsorship, and bigger attendances, and more assets, and more visibility, and they play in a higher league an a stadium owned by their owners.

you asked for the same comparison done for other clubs, I did exactly the same comparison for other clubs. It made you look like an idiot so now you are grasping for a totally different comparision. Im not sure how you are expecting this to help you, I would have thought it obvious that a club which had every game attended by more than 5k is going to have an average higher than a club which had only one but here you go.

Castlefords average in 2001 was 7233
Warringtons average in 2001 was 6363
Salfords averaged in 2001 was 3912

Wakefields was 3525

Isn't Rhys Evans at Warrington a Crusaders Academy product?

I'd like to think that just for once RL can think a bit more long term. I'd like to see how many Welsh players we have in SL after they've been in the top flight for 9 seasons (3 times around the Franchise). That would be a good time to judge, IMO.

I am sorry, IA, but I am not too sympathetic with Wakey who have had hundreds of years and only scraped through the last round of licence applications on an unfulfilled promise of a new stadium. Weren't they given the Scarborough warning a while back?

Spot on.

If the SL Regular Rounds will suffice, name the teams and years you're after and I'll rustle up those average attendances for you.

I have the info covering 1996 to 2009 somewhere.