Disagree totally. How long have the heartland clubs had to flourish?? Decades... and look where we are... no further forwards. We need strong foundations from the heartlands of course we do, but it’s needs to be alongside growing the game outside that to bring wider interest into the game which in turn wil generate increased revenue for clubs therefore benefit everyone and we’ll have a much greater game. The game really needs to get their heads together to find a way to get bigger and better

As others have said feel sorry for their fans and their players , will they get paid now as a condition of the new owner was on re-admission to Super League.

Where does this leave Ottawa now and then New York , ideally get enough clubs over there to start up a viable NA league but they aren't at those levels yet . Personally I would have preferred Toronto stayed as I think we've missed a trick here to grow the game , it just seems there wasn't a proper plan and certainly no NA TV deal . The NRL were looking at NA and Union will probably just step in now, so I fear in a few years one of those will show us how it should have been done as our game dies a slow death.

Maybe Toronto will end up in the Championship or League 1 as the RFL voted for them , it would be similar to a football club folding and being demoted .

But yes it seems strange clubs deciding the fate of another as most will always put their self interests first.

I'd say ALL will put their self-interest first, that's the point of voting rights really. You think Leeds would vote to keep Toronto if they felt their inclusion would threaten their existence a few years down the line? Not likely.

Leeds are in the enviable position of probably being life-long SL club members because of the size and catchment of the club. I think the place has been generally very well run by GH over the years don't get me wrong.

The problem with traditionalism in RL is that the world moves on. Towns like Cas, Fev etc. are no longer mining towns with a strong sense of local community. I mean, there is still a bit of that but RL isn't in the blood of these towns like it was post-war. It's hard to see how that trend will change going forward.

I'd be in favour of re-introducing a licensing system. I understand the argument for promotion and relegation but I think we could manage the teams in the top flight better.

Johnny Davidson on Twitter:

“ Hearing there could be a push soon from Leeds to get Robert Elstone out of his job. Gary Hetherington has been against the split and Elstone from the start in 2018, and an element of the Toronto support has been to unsettle the Super League boss.”

The split has been a disaster for the game so far, brought in to get Wood out of the RFL, which happened anyway. It's taking £100,000s per year out of the game in order to pay Elstone's salary.
The sooner they merge back together, the better

I have said this a few times in the past few years on here but as someone who got in to rugby league despite being based 'outside of the M62 corridor' the two main issues with it's strategy and planning for future development are as follows;

1) Too many teams in tiny towns / suburbs, all within a few miles of each other (the 'M62 corridor' factor).
2) Hardly any teams based in / representing actual decent-sized towns or cities making the team (and sport future development) viable.

I live in Ponte at present, but if I cycle or drive along Wakefield Road for a bit I pass one Championship ground (Fev) and one super league ground (Wakey) in 7.5 miles. If I go the other way 3.5 miles past the race course, I get to Cas' ground. Cas has a population of 40,000, Fev of 14,000 and Wakey about 100k. So within an 11 mile stretch there are 3 teams any of those 154,000 people could support. A decent chunk of them from RL stock (or with strong roots to their location) will likely support a specific one and would never consider any of the others.

But not all 154,000 in those towns will like rugby league. Even if as many as 10% class themselves as genuine fans and would consider / do go to games, that leaves Cas, Fev and Wakey all seeking to make their teams profitable from a captive population of 15,400 people at most. And that then presumes all of those 10% will get their backsides into the grounds / buying the gear on sale.

I was brought up in Durham in the north east - a place without a professional football team and situated pretty much in the middle between Newcastle and Sunderland. As a football fan, my choices (wanting to support my local team) were either of those. Durham has a population of about 65,000, Newcastle about 450,000 and Sunderland 275,000. About half of people in Durham who support a local team are Newcastle fans, about half are Sunderland fans (in my experience).

But the key things with this comparison - football is a more popular sport, and all 3 cities north eastern cities are bigger than those in the West Yorkshire comparison. Assuming 10% of the population are keen football fans (I can guarantee it will be more though) that means Newcastle has a 45,000 'captive audience' in the city, Sunderland has 27,000 and Durham offers 6,500 'floaters' who might be enticed into becoming one of the 45k Geordies, or 27k Mackems.

The fundamental issue with RL is it is not in big cities and it is not in big cities because it is stuck in tin pot towns with small populations, a few miles from the next town with its own club. I ended up supporting Leeds Rhinos as I went to uni in Leeds (it being a big city and with a uni) and it was the closest and most accessible place for me to see rugby league. Likewise, I have friends from elsewhere in the country who developed a soft spot for Leeds United / Rhinos as they became settled in the city, after moving from the north / midlands or the south.

If the teams in SL were from / based in places like Leeds, Bradford, York, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Doncaster, Sheffield, Hull, you instantly increase your potential (in the mid and long term) for growth as they are all bigger places and bigger than the likes of Cas, Wakey, Widnes, Dewsbury, Batley, Fev that are all in the higher echelons of the RL pyramid.

The UK and the world are both global now - how many people on here live somewhere different to where they were born or raised? Or have you all remained within a few streets of your origins your whole life? Younger generations do not seek to stay in places like Fev, Cas, Batley, (Durham) these days as there are more opportunities in bigger places and there is more to do in those places too. If RL sides had a presence in bigger towns (even if these towns were still within the M62 corridor) it would naturally gave the game a bigger exposure pool to develop from. Instead, RL teams and the league as a whole is relying and banking its future on those who either come from generations of fans from before and return for games, or remain captive to exposure and disregard all other teams that might be looking for the same.

RL should seriously consider teaming up with football teams in new places like Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Birmingham, Nottingham, Sheffield and taking a hit for a couple of years on revenue - offer season ticket holders free tickets for RL games for teams based in these cities and / or make agreements with the PL and Championship football teams that they will put 3-4 games on a season in their grounds - the football fans know how to get there with their £500 season ticket every other week so make it as easy as you can to get them to go to RL games.

Leeds Rhinos made it easiest for me to see them (purely due to being in Leeds) and they have gotten a great deal from me - several years of season tickets, a cupboard full of tops and friends buying tickets and merch from Scotland to London as a result of my passion for them. Get the game to the masses!

The idea of expansion in to big cities is definitely the right one by RL, but aiming for Toronto and putting its eggs in that basket was ridiculously flawed. Where is the attraction for people in Toronto watching a new and exciting sport to them, but seeing the mighty Toronto Wolfpack take on the world-known 'Castleford' or 'Warrington' team - what weight do those places carry on a UK scale, let alone a transatlantic one? If it was 'Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield' at least they will carry a bit more gravitas as they are known for things, whether it be popular culture like music and the Beatles, Oasis, Stone Roses, Arctic Monkeys, Human League, television and film or football teams that are well / better known.

As a floating fan sat in Toronto, googling Leeds I would be a bit excited, but then googling all about Cas and what its significance is, or how significant a place Wakefield is would begin to undermine the excitement and glamour of the show - like being an 19 year old at a 10 year olds birthday party, surrounded by 9-12 year olds in size differential.

Sure it looks good and exciting for all the kids having an edgy and cool young person there, but the 19 year old will sharp lose interest if no other edgy, cool or different teenagers make an appearance.

This is it really, the game constantly has an internal battle against itself. On one hand feeling the need to expand into new markets, but on the other having a history, a heartland that is of little interest to bigger sponsors and outside markets. Yet a heartland that is still so important because that's where people start playing the game from a young age.

That's why I think get Salford team up with Man Utd / Man City, Saints with Liverpool but get them playing 4-5 games a season at their grounds. Die hard fans will go regardless, but you need the interested unaware fans - they aren't going to find you so you need to find them.

A bit like being a support band at a gig - your most likely to find your potential future audience as a new / young rock band supporting a more established rock band, rather than supporting an 80s new wave band, or a 90s pop band. RL needs to get itself into big(ger) cities and around people with more interest in sport.

This is the same issue women's football is currently experiencing (though slightly different) - they have started getting teams affiliated with existing men's PL sides but the games are being played in areas a nightmare to get to, compared to the men's. One thing RL is doing more right is doubling up men's and women's games in the 2021 World Cup - that will definitely help to make people at least be neutral to it existing, bashing down any misogyny and hopefully getting a few to attend a few women's SL games further down the line.

Youve made some excellent posts and I agree with much of it. Spot on

I feel sorry for everyone who bought into the idea of expanding into North America starting with Toronto. I think they were sold a pup from the get go. The financial burden put on that new club, in my opinion, was always going to see them go under, Covid just hastened the event. For mine, if we as a sport, want RL to survive we need to stop looking for quick fixes abroad and start putting more resource into the grass roots game. We need to find a way to build a strong robust structure starting at the bottom. If we don't, I honestly believe there is a danger that full time professional RL clubs could be a dying breed, extinct with in 20 years.

The game needs positive exposure and the only way to do that is to showcase itself within communities who have potential to be brought into the fold.

The difficulty is balancing the needs of "expansion" with the needs of looking after the core / base.

I also love that it still has a "scuzzy / rough diamond" appeal to it that football has long sanitised away in pursuit of the £££

I love rugby league, I love the camaraderie, I love the rivalries and (most) fans, I love that fans can and do mix on the terraces, put differences to one side for causes and generally act as a big community who will generally look after one another. We need to use this community as its ambassadors its salespeople, use the players to get into schools in targeted expansion areas, draw people in, engage with them, share ideas and form new bastions of community away from the M62 corridor. (didn't we have such a scheme in the SW at some point doing just this?)

Of course this is where the catch 22 comes in, this all costs and we need money, we wont get money without exposure and vice versa.

Great post.

A big part is the current teams sacrificing a bit of short term revenue for a long term gain. I'm sure they've done it before, but a round on the road to promote the game. The issue is that some clubs are so reliant on every penny from gate receipts, they may not be willing to do it. Especially as a result of the pandemic.

Something for sure though is the passion that rugby league people have. Despite views on how the game should progress, we all want to see the long term future looking a bit more optimistic. There won't be a simple answer, otherwise it probably would have been done by now, but the RFL need more engagement with all stakeholders - fans, players, community clubs, pro clubs, etc.

It's all about perceptions. Teams that get me excited in Oz are from places I knew nothing about, Newcastle, and Brisbane. The romance of RL for me is that we have towns like Cas and Widnes, who are not known for anything else...
Gives me a buzz as gives a nice working class feel perhaps.....
As a trivia question does anyone know what Widnes train station is famous for musically?

I’m sitting in a railway station, got a ticket for my destination....

Homeward Bound

I wish I was

Can we just be clear about the quality, or not, of the Toronto bid?
Elstone got a group of his pals to report back on it with a pre-ordained exec summary. The actual quality of the submission was almost irrelevant.
Elstone single-handedly killed off Toronto and it's no surprise to me that Leeds and Hetherington want him out, and out quickly.

Pretty scathing response from Toronto. https://www.totalrl.com/upfront-dear-robert-from-carlo/

Pretty scathing response from Toronto. https://www.totalrl.com/upfront-dear-robert-from-carlo/

Hetherington and McManus demanded a vote of no confidence in Elstone after he pushed this through (the other clubs voted to keep him).

But not a good thing to have two of the big four including the largest of the lot, demanding you are gone.

Wasn't McManus one of the main people who pushed for the split and got Elstone the job in the first place?

Yep Elstone is Mcmanus' -Leninghan & Morans puppet , seems they've backed a complete dud.

And all my words come back to me, in shades of mediocrity.........

Yup

All to get rid of Nigel Wood, who ended up leaving anyway! The whole split has been a farce.