Judging by the scoreline it appears most of the Wakefield players were chasing shadows, so perhaps Amor deserves credit for laying a hand on a few even if they resulted in misses.

I don't think any team can carry a front row forward who doesn't take the ball up. Certainly not a struggling team like ours.

His tackle rate doesn't alter that. Besides, whilst his tackle rate is usally acceptable he's no defensive guru. His challenges are soft, he rarely dominates the collision and he often takes naps around the ruck.

Some people are asking for minutes played by the Leeds forwards to add some context to the numbers. The difficulty I have when using Sky's coverage the caption updates well after the replacement has entered the field of play. Like me you'll have noted how often Hemmings will announce a player's introduction or return to the action two sets after you've seen him involved out there. For accurate timings you therefore have to backtrack and study the action closely and frankly it's a ball ache of a job doing it. When time has allowed I've included them but unfortunately that time hasn't always been available.

That said:

Leuluai: 37 - 7 (5.29) - 26 - 1 (96%) - 0 – 1
Buderus: 76 - 17 (4.47) - 25 - 1 (96%) - 2 – 1
Peacock: 148 - 21 (7.05) - 33 - 2 (94%) - 1 – 2
Jones-Buchanan: 81 - 16 (5.06) - 32 - 2 (94%) - 1 – 1
Delaney: 96 - 14 (6.86) - 25 - 0 (100%) - 0 – 0
Clarkson: 46 - 7 (6.57) - 27 - 0 (100%) - 1 – 0

Burrow: 40 - 9 (4.44) - 4 - 0 (100%) - 1 – 0
Lauitiiti: 46 - 10 (4.60) - 15 - 2 (88%) - 1 – 0
Kirke: 33 - 5 (6.60) - 5 - 0 (100%) - 0 – 0
Bailey: 60 - 10 (6.00) - 21 - 1 (95%) - 0 – 0

Leuluai - 20 + 18 = 38 mins
Buderus - 30 + 22 = 52 mins
Peacock - 19 + 37 = 56 mins
Jones-Buchanan - 61 + 9 = 70 mins
Delaney - 71 mins
Clarkson - 34 + 26 = 60 mins
__________
Burrow - 28 mins
Lauitiiti - 20 + 19 = 39 mins
Kirke - 23 mins
Bailey - 27 + 16 = 43 mins

Good work TVOC, even with the lowest minutes Kirke's efforts are still poor.

I've done a bit of stat analysing for our props and found the following over the season. Total are shown, then per match average in brackets, with Green as best for that field, and Red worst:

Ian Kirke - Highest Tackle Efficiency, High Meters Per Drive (apparently), lowest average meters, and lowest average drives. Lowest Penalties

Games = 18
Total Meters = 1001 (=#FF000056)
Total Drives = 144 (=#FF00008)
Meters Per Drive = 6.95
Tackles = 338 (19)
Missed = 16 (=#4080000.9)
Tackle Efficiency = =#40800095.5%
Errors = 6 (0.33)
Penalties = 3 (=#4080000.17)

Kylie Leuluai - High Availability, Lowest Tackles Per Game, Lowest Tackle Efficiency, Highest Penalties

Games = 16
Total Meters = 1261 (79)
Total Drives = 187 (12)
Meters Per Drive = 6.74
Tackles = 273 (=#FF000017)
Missed = 24 (1.5)
Tackle Efficiency = =#FF000091.9%
Errors = 6 (0.3icon_cool.gif
Penalties = 10 (0.63)

Luke Burgess - Highest Average Meters, Highest Average Drives, Lowest Meters Per Drive, High Tackle Efficiency, Lowest Errors

Games = 11
Total Meters = 1035 (=#40800094)
Total Drives = 156 (=#40800014)
Meters Per Drive = =#FF00006.63
Tackles = 226 (21)
Missed = 13 (1.2)
Tackle Efficiency = 94.6%
Errors = 3 (=#4080000.27)
Penalties = 5 (0.45)

Ben Cross - Low Carries, Low Meters, Highest Meters Per Drive, High Number of Tackles, Highest Missed Tackles, Low Tackle Efficiency, High Penalties

Games = 10
Total Meters = 645 (65)
Total Drives = 90 (9)
Meters Per Drive = =#4080007.17
Tackles = 215 (22)
Missed = 17 (=#FF00001.7)
Tackle Efficiency = 92.7%
Errors = 4 (0.4)
Penalties = 6 (0.6)

Ryan Bailey - Highest Tackles per game, highest errors, highest penalties. High carries per game, High missed tackles per game, high tackle efficiency.

Games = 11
Total Meters = 862 (7icon_cool.gif
Total Drives = 127 (12)
Meters Per Drive = 6.78
Tackles = 256 (=#40800023)
Missed = 15 (1.4)
Tackle Efficiency = 94.5%
Errors = 7 (=#FF00000.64)
Penalties = 7 (=#FF00000.64)

As I believe that Peacock is a completely different class to any of the above I didn't include him in any of the comparions. Most of the props seem to top some areas, and come bottom in otherss.

Jamie Peacock

Games = 8
Total Meters = 885 (111)
Total Drives = 145 (1icon_cool.gif
Meters Per Drive = 6.10
Tackles = 230 (29)
Missed = 6 (0.8 )
Tackle Efficiency = 97.4%
Errors = 4
Penalties = 7

Make of all that what you will...

Not atypical either, much as it pains me to say it.

Mcshane probably needed a rest was his turn!

But to be fair he did up his attack workrate. managed 5 hit ups. thats a big improvement of 1 from his usual 4 drives!

Yes its a shame that OPTA do not publish the interchange times as they do throw a whole different perspective on the stats. tvoc kindly provided timings three times earlier at my request and you could work out the work rate of each player.

For example - Props; if you divide the number of minutes on the field by the total of tackles and drives (even missed tackles) you see the work rate per time on the field.. What this showed over those 3 games was that the prop putting in the most work was Cross with a tackle or a drive every 62 secs. He also put in the highest number of marker tackles at 4.7 per game which showed he was often first in at the tackle. So if you are only on the field for around 30 minutes per game (as Cross was) and you make 22 tackles per game (as Cross did) that doesn't leave long for many drives as well. So this is why he is down in metres and drives per game.

So as Cross also made the most metres per carry why were we not giving him more game time? Kirke has made fewer tackles/drives per game and fewer m/carry yet got 10 minutes more time on the field per game than Cross.

If you do inlcude JP he has highest number of tackles, carries and penalties per game of the props.

I'm hoping the minutes will re-appear at some point (for Sky games at least) but I have too much on at the moment. Everything rugby wise has had to take a back seat for a couple of months and likely as not for the next month or so also. This week for example, the car is on the drive with the engine running waiting for this twitter.com/#!/XH558 to update. Spent most of Tuesday up at Waddington and despite two 'valiant' attempts she never moved. That's '558 on the left overlooking '607. The pilot on board 558 is Martin Withers, the man who took 607 down to the Falklands in '82 and dropped the full stick of 21 1,000 bombs across the runway at Port Stanley. That said, obviously the only reason I've uploaded the shot is to marvel at the spotters ladder. The full size image can be viewed here www.fotothing.com/photos/619/619 ... ae_ee4.jpg and expanded to show the groundcrew working beneath 558 __________ Edit: Update for all you Vulcan fans out there: car can go back in the garage. twitter.com/#!/XH558

I'm hoping the minutes will re-appear at some point (for Sky games at least) but I have too much on at the moment. Everything rugby wise has had to take a back seat for a couple of months and likely as not for the next month or so also. This week for example, the car is on the drive with the engine running waiting for this twitter.com/#!/XH558 to update. Spent most of Tuesday up at Waddington and despite two 'valiant' attempts she never moved. That's '558 on the left overlooking '607. The pilot on board 558 is Martin Withers, the man who took 607 down to the Falklands in '82 and dropped the full stick of 21 1,000 bombs across the runway at Port Stanley. That said, obviously the only reason I've uploaded the shot is to marvel at the spotters ladder. The full size image can be viewed here www.fotothing.com/photos/619/619 ... ae_ee4.jpg and expanded to show the groundcrew working beneath 558 __________ Edit: Update for all you Vulcan fans out there: car can go back in the garage. twitter.com/#!/XH558

Last night I'm sure Phil Clarke said that Gareth Hock made 6 drives plus a good few tackles in his 30min (debut) after 2 years without a game!

Quote ="tvoc"I'm hoping the minutes will re-appear at some point (for Sky games at least) but I have too much on at the moment. Everything rugby wise has had to take a back seat for a couple of months and likely as not for the next month or so also. This week for example, the car is on the drive with the engine running waiting for this twitter.com/#!/XH558 to update. Spent most of Tuesday up at Waddington and despite two 'valiant' attempts she never moved. That's '558 on the left overlooking '607. The pilot on board 558 is Martin Withers, the man who took 607 down to the Falklands in '82 and dropped the full stick of 21 1,000 bombs across the runway at Port Stanley. That said, obviously the only reason I've uploaded the shot is to marvel at the spotters ladder. The full size image can be viewed here www.fotothing.com/photos/619/619 ... ae_ee4.jpg and expanded to show the groundcrew working beneath 558 __________ Edit: Update for all you Vulcan fans out there: car can go back in the garage. twitter.com/#!/XH558'" You should have got someone to hold the ladder for you! Elf n Safety etc

Quote ="tvoc"I'm hoping the minutes will re-appear at some point (for Sky games at least) but I have too much on at the moment. Everything rugby wise has had to take a back seat for a couple of months and likely as not for the next month or so also. This week for example, the car is on the drive with the engine running waiting for this twitter.com/#!/XH558 to update. Spent most of Tuesday up at Waddington and despite two 'valiant' attempts she never moved. That's '558 on the left overlooking '607. The pilot on board 558 is Martin Withers, the man who took 607 down to the Falklands in '82 and dropped the full stick of 21 1,000 bombs across the runway at Port Stanley. That said, obviously the only reason I've uploaded the shot is to marvel at the spotters ladder. The full size image can be viewed here www.fotothing.com/photos/619/619 ... ae_ee4.jpg and expanded to show the groundcrew working beneath 558 __________ Edit: Update for all you Vulcan fans out there: car can go back in the garage. twitter.com/#!/XH558'" You should have got someone to hold the ladder for you! Elf n Safety etc

Minutes would definitely be something that OPTA should show. In the games that TVOC kindly added minutes for, Kirke and Cross were receiving similar minutes, though Kirke was generally on for a few minutes more.

Also, its worth noting, that Kirke doesn't always play prop, and appears in the second row a fair amount too, not that I think he's better than any of our current 2nd row option

He did have a (unreliable) mate standing by but when the big fella got bold and reached for the skies he scappered across the A15 to relative safety to take some pictures.

__________



I think Kirke has found himself at prop throughout the current campaign. This was also the case on Friday replacing Leuluai on the 20th minute after Bailey had replaced Peacock in the 19th - (BTW the eagle eyed will have noticed the Sky caption got that order wrong when they finally appeared well after the event.)

Prop Kirke was then replaced by Peacock in the 43rd minute (seems an odd time to make a substitution - injury to Kirke perhaps?)

It is a stupid time to make the switch. What's the benefit? A half time switch screams logical. He probably just forgot.

But not odd in Macs mind. He will frequently make 1/2 subs 3-5 mins into the second half.

Can't knock a method that is obviosuly bearing fruit.....................

For one split second I mis-read your last line and though you'd said you though he was better than our 2nd row options. We were about to fall out.

Anyway, as you were.

In those 3 games the average on field time was: Cross 35 mins and Kirke 41.33 mins. Had Cross been given the same on field time he would have increased his stats by 5 or 6 tackle/drives per game which could have had him somewhere at the top of the prop stats.



I think Kirke has played most games at prop. Perhaps it is his ability to play either prop or 2nd row that has got him an extention to his contract. None of the other front line props can do that.

He was trying to barge Pat Richards off the catch while pretending to go for the ball, but misjudged it spectacularly badly! Sinfield did it much more successfully earlier on.

watching kirke from the carnegie seats, at the PTB, when buderus or whoever recieves, he stands 5m behind the rest so he doesn't recieve the ball. watch in the next game

Good spot Tad. Seen that a few times.

Guy is an oxygen thief.

Kirke has a proven ability to gain selection as a prop (in 2011) but does he have a proven ability to play prop?

If the club wanted a second row/prop type haven't they already got one on the books in Jones-Buchanan and doesn't he play both roles far better than Ian Kirke ever has or ever will?

Now I didn't (and wouldn't) say he has a proven ability to play well in either position.



Yes I agree with you on both counts. For me JJB is our player of the season so far with a massive contribution every week. In the modern game 2nd rows do as much of the hard graft as the props but are able to stay on the field longer because they are more athletic so maybe the future is to play a whole pack of 2nd rows!

For the benefit of giving due consideration to that suggestion: Is Ian Kirke a prop or second row?

After due consideration I would say that he seems to have changed his status from being 'not good enough for a top 4 team 2nd row' to now being 'not good enough for a top 4 team prop either.' But I suppose he is on balance better as a prop than a 2nd row where he won several GF rings that some people seem to think proves something!

So I guess that means he is now a prop that can at a pinch play 2nd row. Whereas say Kylie can only be counted as 'no longer good enough as a top team prop' because he could never play as a top team 2nd row.

So the plusses for Kirke are:

Good turn of pace for a big forward (twice seen when chasing back to make a tackle)
Low error count
Can play either prop or 2nd row
Consistent performances (even these are constently not good enough!)
This season has improved his metres per game by 16%
This season has improved his number of carries per game by 12.5%
This season has improved his number of tackles per game by 3.4%
This season has improved his metres per carry by 2.96%
Probably fills one of the 'cheap for cap' squad spots with Bailey and possibly now Leului.

--and the Minus points for Kirke are:

Despite the above improvements most of his stats are just not good enough for a top SL side regular 17 spot.


For comparison purposes the following 2011 stats for random props against our regular props so far:

Av Metres per game: Graham (158.05m) Lynch (123.4) Puletua (115.2) Wood (10icon_cool.gif Griffin (87.75)
JP (110.6) Burgess (94.9) Kylie (78.81) Bailey (78.36) Cross (64.5) Kirke (55.61)

Av Carries per game: Graham (22.32) Lynch (18.65) Wood (15.21) Puletua (14.56) Griffin (11.91)
JP (18.12) Burgess (14.1icon_cool.gif Kylie (11.69) Bailey (11.54), Cross (9) Kirke (icon_cool.gif

Av M per carry: Puletua (7.91) Griffin (7.43) Wood (7.1) Graham (7.0icon_cool.gif Lynch (6.62)
Cross (7.17) Kirke (6.95) Bailey (6.79) Kylie (6.74) Burgess (6.63)

Av tackles per game: Lynch (2icon_cool.gif Graham (26) Puletua (25.94) Wood (25.79) Griffin (16.31)
JP (28.75) Bailey (23.27) Cross (21.5) Burgess (20.55) Kirke (18.77) Kylie (17.06)


So if we are looking to recuit a prop it should be Lynch not Griffin.

Crikey.

Cannot most of those increases (the exception being metres per carry) be explained away by his move closer to the action where he himself states his workload is increased at prop?

__________

Meanwhile happy to report '558 finally got away from Waddington around 5pm on Friday just before the thunderstorm descended over the base: