As a Saints fan I'd just like to say well done to Leeds - you give it a real go in the first half and caused genuine trouble for the so called unbeatable Aussies with your brand and offloading.
It was good to hear B McD pre game say if we go set for set we'll lose. I only wish our own coach could see further than boring set for set RL.
Also I think injuries for all 3 SL sides has been very unfortunate. Us our best 2 players in Roby/ Perci . Wigan with both Tomkins' then McIllorum and you guys with your several missing. Whilst I don't think these players would change the overall result - it would be closer than the 30 point spankings we all received.

I thought last season that Sutcliffe showed signs of real quality, but I've yet to see anything from Lilley other than lots of effort. When you compare them (& Wigan & Saints experienced halves) to the rookie Aussie halves we are miles behind in that area.

Are there 10 English ex SL players currently playing in the NRL?

I can think of 6 obvious ones.

What a top post this is!
If only we could get the majority of young coaches to adopt the same approach and philosophy, we might give ourselves a chance of matching the best and deepen the number of clubs who could compete.

And yet they scored directly off two of them and we spilled another.

Seth!

Don't quit!

Our game can ill afford to lose assets like you.

My thoughts watching the game were that it was actually the aussies defense which was noticably more aggressive than ours. Not in a bad way, but they were so quickly off their line and in our faces we didn't have time to play. I'm not sure we are used to that level of intensity.

When they had the ball, we seemed to take a few steps forward and wait. As a result we struggled to dominate them and they made ground more easily with us on the backfoot.

In the first half there were two sets which summed this up. We were pinned down on their line and made about 20 meters in our carries and we put in a monster kick and chase, and we pinned them onto their own line. Despite their forwards having put in a hard defensiev shift, and had to run almost 90m to get back onside they comfortably made it over halfway from their set with standard carries.

Not unexpected, hope they get some confidence though from the first half. The halves were always going to be the place we struggled this year - especially with McGuire now missing, but it's an opportunity for Lilley and Sutty to settle and take responsibility. Difficult for both, one only 19 and with no real first team experience, the other with limited experience and coming back from a serious injury (clearly a while before he's fully match fit).

We don't produce halves in this country like they do in Australia, I think that's fairly obvious, and when we do half of them end up playing hooker because we can't produce them either. Halves should be able to run but that's really not what their whole game is about, Burrow and McGuire got in the team because of their speed and support play, Burrow has never evolved into a game manager and McGuire took a long time to get there and there are many who would say he's not that effective at that even now. League Freak once summed it up perfectly in a post a long time ago, We don't produce half backs, we produce little blokes who can't tackle.
Unless a half can do something exceptional running with ball in hand then he's not getting a gig in the first team and won't make it out of the U20's. There's no A team adult rugby and lower divisions are where young halves go while they figure out what real job they are going to do for the rest of their lives.

We produce the halves that the game over here demands. There is no need to run the plays NQV did yesterday to the level they did yesterday when in SL the line is so much easier to break.

The whole of SL has a lack of home grown class at half back. We do not have halves with pace and decision making skills anymore. The big difference last night and in the Wigan match was at half back - they had players that could run the show while we didn't. Despite our strong forward signings we may struggle for a while until a class decision maker at half back emerges or is recruited.

An interesting game last night - Leeds should be applauded for their efforts - sadly injuries, superior ability and fitness won out in the end.

What is frustrating is they didn't do anything spectacularly well they just did the basic really well. Their defensive abilities were really good and very structured - you seldom saw a broken when line they were defending inside their 20 - their commitment to each other when was admirable. The pass for Thurston for the first try was so simple yet perfectly executed in that Norman crossed the line untouched from 15 metres out. This play was seen in all three games - simple skills executed really well.

The superior fitness was demonstrated in the yards NQC made coming off their line they seldom had a problem getting over the half way line by simply running it down the middle.

The worry for me is the regression of certain players: Watkins doesn't appear to be improving as he should and Hardaker looks a troubled player to me: his body language after Moon let O'Neil in was very poor. His attack also seems to have gone backwards - his broken field running isn't as effective as it was and he comes into the line but seems incapable of doing anything but getting tackled ball in hand. It would be a real shame if these two players failed to fulfill their undoubtedly talent.

I don't buy into the we are in awe of the Aussies - the media are trying to promote the game and attract readers/viewers - the majority of players are realistic in understanding the quality/fitness differentials and providing they have the correct attitude it should give them something to aspire to. I would like to see the competition continued as it generates heaps of media publicity, it enables us to see the very best Aussies here and hopefully something will rub off on our players.

The game needs to understand why we can't produce quality half backs and centres - until this addressed we will never trouble the Aussies and Kiwis on a consistent basis in games that matter.

Fully agree with the above comment. From my experiences many of the problems, as Seth has alluded to, go right back to the junior game where short sighted coaches put short term gain over long term developement.

I have seen around many children become dissillusioned with the game due to their experiences and not just stop playing but turn their back on supporting the game which is having a negative impact on SL clubs both now and for generations to come!

Typical examples generally relate around playing the biggest players at a young age to barge over the opposition and ignore skills (if your born at the end of the school year, unless you are a physical freak you get dumped on the wing and dont see the ball - or more often sub). Whilst standing in as touch line manager once, it was interesting to note that 90% of starting players and 70% of all players were born between September and Christmas!

Once match day squads were limited in number to 17 (out of a squad of 30 - i think), smaller (read born later in school year) players would typically play 1 week out of 5 but still have to travel every week to the matches to find out if you would get selected - a complete waste of time for both parents and players to have to travel, typically 2 hours, to find out they were not playing.

Seth has also alluded to poor quality coaching - one of the clubs I was involved in, the parents ousted the qualified coach because he split each session equally between fitness (many of the fat, overweight, forwards who bashed it up the middle couldnt cope), ball skills (a waste of time according to players and parents who just wanted it passed to the fat lad to run over the opposition) and tackling!. The club continued to coach and play matches without a qualified coach present which went completely against rules but blind eyes were constantly being turned everywhere you looked! This was at U12 or 13 age group!!! Lets not even go into the drinking culture that the (parent)coaches instill into the kids even at this age - again, completely against rules but yet more blind eyes.

The contrast with the philosophy and coaching at Union is really amazing! The coaching (and coaching support from the RFU) is miles ahead and really does focus on skills (albeit a different set of skills), until junior move into the colts side (16) leagues are not played in (there are still cup competitions) - this allows skills to be focussed on more without the same negative impact of losing (this was a concious decision by the RFU), all players are valued and get a good amount of game time each week. The overall result is players are happier, fitter, and more skillful (as has already been stated a different set of skills).

In order for the game to produce players at a higher calibre at the top level, a complete overhaul needs to take place at junior level - in order for this to happen the junior governing body needs to be bought in house at the RFL and made fit for purpose and not constantly turn blind eyes.

HKR x 2, Salford x 2, Saints x 2, Cas 1, Wire x 2, Catalan 1 . There maybe more, but the answer is clubs won't stick with British halves and give them time to develop.

Yeah, & Joel Tomkins spilled a bomb from Tony Clubb last October - he must be a world beater!

The three incidents you mentioned:
1) Handley drops bomb with no pressure on him (albeit chasers about 2/3m away). Most, I am sure, would say that a winger/full back should be taking those. But, to be fair, a decent kick.
2) Handley knocks on a grubber kick with no oppostion player anywhere near him - surely you can't be claiming that was as a result of a brilliant kick?
3) Morgan scores try after grubber ricochets off Sutcliffe's leg into Morgan path - did Thurston magically foresee Sutcliffe's leg intervening & play accordingly?

The Aussie teams are only a few percentage points better than us in everything they do but they amount to a significant gulf in class when executed as a whole. Throw in the fact their halfbacks are streets ahead of ours and that gulf in class becomes a chasm! Those two Roosters kids (Nikorima and Hastings) are streets ahead of anything we've got.

Would more British halfbacks playing in SL make much difference? Probably not. Maybe we need to ship the young kids off to Australia and invite them to return when they've developed their trade to a professional standard?

I thought we were excellent in the first half barring creating more chances from the field position we gained far too often it was an easy read or when we called a move Burrow (mainly) or another in possession ignored the call and went the other way.
It's obvious but those basics they and ALL NRL teams do so well lay the platform for that 2nd half yes we were busted and down on personnel but once JT had that base to work from he put us to the sword albeit with a couple of lucky kicks thrown in.
Their 9 Granville also showed what we are missing around the ptb.
I don't think we disgraced ourselves overall but for 1 or 2 poor errors and hopefully we learn from it going forward but again as a sport over here the RFL/SL Clubs and the game as a whole HAS TO have a structural and financial re-think imo.

At last a point well made.
You see WE can talk extreme good sense when he wants to, unlike some others on here.
Thurston displayed a range of kicks that most SL halves can only dream about. If you can't see that then it's no wonder we can't compete at this level.
As has been said his kicks were on the back of much better field position than we were able to create. Due to defensive line speed, forward physicality (& backs too) & playing the conditions far better than we could.
One thing that irked me constantly throughout the game was the continual presence on the field of the Cowboys support staff. The guy in an orange bib (the alleged water carrier(?) - he was carrying a blue bottle but I didn't see any of their players drinking from it) was on the field longer than their bench forwards. Surely the off-field officials can see that he was coaching their players, telling them where to stand etc.? Aussie teams seem to do this a lot without ever being pulled up for it.

Genuinely sad to hear this. Back in the early to mid 80s it was just the same. I was a promising swimmer but got bored with endless lengths and absolutely no technical coaching on anything. I remember giving it up for a few years and then came back for a one off competition. I happened to win my races that day but the coach said "oh you could've been great if you'd learnt to dive properly!" He'd not once said anything about this in the years I'd been in the team or offered any guidance at all.

Rugby coaching at school followed the "give it to the big lad" approach too. Not much good for an enthusiastic but shrimp-like kid like me at the time.

The question now remains as how we get participation up - surely this is the base point to increase competitiveness.

For me there are two ways:
1. a better international side that can win the WC
2. a better domestic competition that attracts quality players that kids can aspire to.

The quick fix is the former but are we prepared to have a competition that might be equally competitive allbeit at a lower standard because our top players are all playing in the NRL.

We already have half a side playing in the NRL - 3 x Burgess brothers, other Burgess, Reed, Graham, Cooper, Widdop and Hodgson if say Hardaker and Watkins were also playing in the NRL you would have a good foundation of a really competitive side.

As an aside to all the negativity, I enjoyed the weekend and the opportunity to see genuine world class teams and players strutting their stuff. It was the equivalent of dining out all weekend at five star restaurants. I guess it's back to Greggs pasties next week with Batchelors Mushy Peas!

In spite of the lopsided results, I'd like the game to persist with this WCC weekend. Scrapping it would be the Ostrich equivalent of sticking your head in the sand.

The poblems around youth come from the top I'm afraid.

At the basic level, the RFL has no cash. It hasn't for years. As a result, there is no money passed down to the grassroots clubs, who have no money to run a club on. If there's no money then you are relying on someones dad to do stuff. Based on the lack of knowledge about the game you hear on the terraces (wherever you go), its not surprising that kids end up underskilled.

At Outlaws we run a very decent youth section. We get players who are playing for our first team (and often the Uni teams to coach the juniors, and we pay for them to get coaching badges to improve the quality of coaching. we are now getting lads coming through and making it into our first team because they know and understand the game. Our main problems are that we are a non heartlands club, so recruitment is difficult, and finances. I don't think the RFL gives any support for the junior section. We pay for coaching courses and the like out of our own money because its important to us as a club. Many don't

Has Ryan Hall recovered from being bitchslapped by his opposing winger Kyle Feldt yet?

That was probably the biggest embarrassment of the whole evening.

That was terribly disappointing. He should have knocked the guy into touch.
Even Lewis Tierney made a better fist of it against the Broncos winger almost preventing a score.

It was a poor effort but I think thats what he was trying to do. If he goes low he scores anyway. You have to go high there, but that increases the chances of getting bumped / spun, which is what happened and Ryan looked silly

For all those who seriously believe the appointment of Silverwood as referee was as good as handing the game to the Cowboys, the penalty count last night was 12-6 in Leeds favour.