Again, you put it well, but I dissagree. The Buderus we see now compared to 4 years ago (when he was the best in the world) is not a massive change. Of course he is not the same, but he is still very fit and still one of the top 4 hookers in the world. If he was in the NRL still he would be playing 80 or close to 80 minutes week in week out. Why can he not do it in super league.

By contrast if you compare Matt Diskin now to what he was 4 years ago, there is a huge difference. He is far slower, both physically and mentally than he was 4 years ago.

I don't think it is a wrong statment to make that Matt Diskin at his absolute best, was still not as good as the Buderus we have today.

What we have to differentiate from here, is that just because Buderus is regarded so high by some, does not mean to say that what Diskin has offered is in anyway forgotten about. Why can we not appreciate quality we have in Buderus without it been a negative on Diskin. Or indeed I don't dissagree with your view that if it was forced on us, that Diskin would be perfectly adequate to perform the one hooker role in this competition. Where I dissagree is that you would get the same Diskin we have had for the years preceeding.

And the argument that GF winners rings should come into it, should not be a deciding factor for any player, never mind just Diskin. Any new contracts or signings, should be based on the team improving year on year to meet the increased challenges.

No, I meant precisely what I asked you. Why do you think that past performances, rather than current form, should even be considered when picking a current team. Simple enough I would have thought. The "everybody knows" is a risible defence, and belongs in the schoolyard. Once again, I invite you to put up or shut up.



Useing childish insults to pad out your argument says more about the weakness in the thought process of the poster, rather than the persons such antics are aimed at. As far as I am aware of, we are discussing the merits of Buderus and Disken THIS season. Perhaps you could also address that, and at the same time explain how the performance of any player in any season somehow reflects on me?



Show me examples of "player bashing" What we have seen is considered opinion from several posters, with reasonable points being raised on both sides. Unless you're a bit of a drama queen there's only been the snide remarks from the usual suspects when they've run out of anything meaningful to add. And if your basing your own arguments on assumptions, then the only conclusion to be reached is that you lack the intelligence to understand what has been written over the past dozen or so pages.



I'm sure you're still a very attractive woman......

Has someone hacked your account today. You're making a lot more sense than usual



Whilst I have sat firmly in the Buderus fans corner on this issue, I have tried where possible not to bag Diskin as he has been a loyal servant to the club, and is a good SL hooker, and were Buderus to leave at the end of the season I wouldn't worry.

I'm not sure that he'd get another contract in the NRL doing 80mins each week.

And still you are incapable of forming your own opinion, are you scared you might upset someone?

Its a a yes/no answer...........

When all the squad is fit does Diskin get in the 17?

You have Buderus who could cover 80mins in a breath if needed, by your calculation you give Diskin the nod over Ali, Ablett, Eastwood, JJB, Kirke?

He can after all, as the coach has stated fill in at the 2nd row.

Or maybe you have Diskin in above Senior, Smith, Delaney?

Or do you drop Webb out of the 17?

He offers nothing, his legs have gone, they went 18 months ago, although clearly sentiment is a high priority in your values, however professional sport isnt run on sentiment, ask Sir Alex Ferguson.

Which were the games where Diskin did the full 80 last season that back that up?

The problem is people, that whilst we get all hot and bothered about someone's inability to see our own extremely reasonable viewpoint,

the elephant in the room is Buderus's agent.

This where the insults and childish retorts start.
There's quite a lot of reasonable debate on this thread from both sides of the fence and plenty of reasonable examples to back each argument.
Then we get this drivel from the great pretender


Diskin has been consistently selected in the 17 when everyone is fit and the records show/prove that so you have nothing to back that reasoning.
Who says Buderus can do 80 minutes in a "heartbeat"? the coach certainly doesn't think so and to imply Disko only gets selected on sentiment is bollox of the highest order.
You don't achieve the success this great club of ours has over the last few years on sentiment.
As for his legs been gone for 18 months


His current form isn't brilliant but there's others who aren't A1 at this moment in time either.
Just like last year with Sinfield you resort to writing certain players off and getting into pi$$ing contests when in reality just like he did last year when we ended the season unbeaten WITHOUT Buderus and 1 no9 Diskin will prove his worth.

Look stay out of this, its a debate for adults and you are clearly deluded, nothing I have seen dictates Biderus cannot do 80mins, he's clearly the fittest player in the side playing in a game 20% slower than the NRL.

You think Diskin is the player he was, he has been in decline for the last 2 years, instead of trying to carry favour why dont you admit was is clearly on offer when you watch the game!!

Why dont you answer the question as Puig ain't got the minerals, when all the team are fit does Diskin get in the 17?

Simple question even for you.

Look stay out of this, its a debate for adults and you are clearly deluded, nothing I have seen dictates Biderus cannot do 80mins, he's clearly the fittest player in the side playing in a game 20% slower than the NRL.

You think Diskin is the player he was, he has been in decline for the last 2 years, instead of trying to carry favour why dont you admit was is clearly on offer when you watch the game!!

Why dont you answer the question as Puig ain't got the minerals, when all the team are fit does Diskin get in the 17?

Simple question even for you.

Of course he does.

When Buderus was signed McLennan openly stated he intended to use two hookers in rotation in his matchday 17. He's not made any comments to the contrary, and the fact that when both have been available they have both been in the 17 would suggest that's still his policy, irrespective of whether anyone else is fit or not.

If it's a discussion for adults LOG OFF!
I've answered yer question Diskin is in the 17.
Bless yer titchy you tried and failed miserably last year and once again you choose a player who's not on top form and write him off




How long before you try and claim you were trolling this time when yer handed yer @ss and shown up AGAIN?
Also IF Disko has been finished for over 18 mths explain him been the only 9 in the team when we went unbeaten from Buderus' injury at Wigan last year?
Was that down to sentiment and him getting carried by the team? PMSL

Really, so the McLennan game plan dicates that irregardless of form its a strict regime with no flexibility.

Thats that covered then....................

Place your 17 on paper when the whole squad are fit.

PS

I haven't wrote him off, I never wrote him in.

He will go down as an average 9 playing in a exceptional side, Buderus will go down as a League great criminally underused by Leeds to the detriment of the side.

Webb.
Donald/Smith.
Delaney.
Senior.
Hall.
Mcguire.
Burrow.
Leuleui
Buderus
Peacock
Ablett
Jjb
Sinfield.
Diskin.
Beastwood.
Ali.
Bailey.
As for never "writing him in" and him been an average 9 in a very good team that proves my point about yer pathetic player witch hunt!

Titch, effort can get you only so far.

Others might be willing to indulge your online masochistic desires but you'll need to do far, far better before I'll lower myself to give you a good beating.

You cant use three wingers so you lose Smith or Donald out of the 17?

Potentially Smith who can cover FB, Wing, Centre or even 6&7 for Diskin who is an average 9 and part time 2nd rower when required?

You also exit Kirke, Burgess, Pitts, and Ambler.

Translation: Still no answer.

On current form i'd go with Donald but i wouldn't retain him so Smithy takes that wing spot next year and allows for rotation in the backs this season.
FYi i'm fully aware who i've left out.

I know it sounds like a fudge but....

I have two alternative first choice 17's for Leeds depending on the opposition.

One has both Diskin and Buderus in it, the other has one or the other in it.

Not sure coach McClennan shares my view though.

Is that not pure supposition with little evidence that could be offered to support it?

My belief is that he can't cope with being an 80 minute a week hooker (and certainly can't produce quality for 80 minutes week in week out), but I don't think that's just supposition:

His age makes it reasonably unlikely - though far from impossible.

His record of not having played as an 80 minute hooker for 2 years suggests he might now struggle.

The fact that he missed 22/50 matches over the 2 years before that (when he was an 80 minute hooker) also suggest it would be unlikely that 4 years later he would be able to do it week in week out.

Many posters believe he is our best hooker, yet our coach only gives him half a game most weeks - suggesting he either can't complete 80 minutes each week or can't do it effectively (or if its not for these is he not quite as clear cut as top rake as might be claimed?).

Our coach also rests him for matches - even when only playing 40 minutes a week.

Have a little read through the thread Titch eh?

I'm referring to the run in last season after Buderus's injury at Wigan - 8 wins on the bounce up to and including the Grand Final.

I'm sure you'll have stats to show Diskin was spelled briefly in some of the games but the point would stand that he has shown himself able to operate effectively as the only specialist hooker in the 17 as recently as 10 months ago.

He was playing longer spells than Diskin before he came here. He was wanted still in the NRL, where they do not play the 2 hooker games in every team like we tend to be doing here. Hookers in the NRL play for longer spells. He was playing SOO before arriving here, which is way above even our own international teams, which Diskin deemed not good enough for.

I think it is far more likely to be wrong to assume he wouldn't be playing those longer spells if was he in the NRL, or indeed any other super league team bar Saints.




I think the overriding opinion here is that the coaches actions are not because of what you are believing them to be, but because of other reasons.

Again there is nothing to back that up with assurance, but neither is there anything to back up your view either with assurance.

Both players IMO would have the equal stamina producing the same game time. I don't believe either can do a full 80, but believe Buderus would give more impact per minute in that hooking role. But at the same time, different games may dictate different tactics and there may be a time where Diskins steady safe game play is more beneficial to the side than Buderus's dynamics. However, I see no reason why it has to be cast iron that you need to have both in the 17 for that tactic all the time.

Sorry but to get it to basics:

I believe one reason why Diskin features in the 17 each week is because Buderus no longer has the fitness to be at the top of his game week in week out as the sole hooker in the 17 and point to his failure to fulfil that role for 4 years as evidence.

You believe he is significantly superior to Diskin and more than capable of operating effectively week in week out as the only specialist hooker but that the coach feels he has to select and play Diskin each week, apparently to the detriment of the team, because he's sentimental and so, presumably, is his boss?

Is that an accurate summary?

I don't think your last point is fair to use though as playing devils advocate one could argue that had it been Diskin that broke his leg last year that Buderus would also have ''shown himself able to operate effectively as the only specialist hooker in the 17'' and we might just have easily won 8 on the bounce and the GF with Buderus as our only specialist hooker.

Some interesting debate though all the same