He should have been given more opportunities this year, especially with how badly the majority of our pack started

Having said that, he needs to knuckle down next preseason and force himself in to the team, hopefully we will have a coach who is willing to back young players by then anyway

Again with the Mac doesn't back young players stuff, I thought that had been rubbished already?

Must of missed that, explain to me how someone who would pick Kirke over Singleton in a cup final, and then Achurch over Keinhorst the following year, (going against the form of the respective players) is someone who backs our accede my products?

He never picks any academy products unless forced by injury, even then he often resorts to square pegs in round holes and playing hybrid positions before giving a young player a chance
The only exception I can think of is Stevie Ward

Singleton who is 4 appearances away from 100 games for Leeds, A GF starter last year and CC winner also.

Stevie Ward 82 appearances (and would've mean many more if not for injury) after giving his debut at 18 and picked for a GF and CC Final in that same year.

Liam Sutcliffe 84 appearances and given starts ahead of Sinfield last year and was trusted with taken over his spot in the halves this year.

Keinhorst 55 appearances, harshly missed out on the 2015 CC final for Achurch but picked ahead of Achurch for the GF (as was another academy lad Walters). Also lucky to be picked for the 2012 CC Final.

Golding 15 appearances
Handley 40 appearances
Lilley 24 appearances
Walters 32 appearances

One of the first things he did at the start of 2011 was make BJB and Watkins our first choice right hand partnership.

But because he hasn't given Baldwinson games he doesn't play academy products.

What he doesn't seem to want to do is play young props and I think that's chiefly a concern about the size and physicality of SL in the middle of the pitch.

Singleton has become a first team regular, so has ward. Keinhorst has gone from an afterthought to a solid squad man. Walters has also had opportunities He didn't hesitate throwing Handley and Golding in. Same with Lilley.

Id even say the most blatant example this year is Sutty, gave him a go at 6. Then when Hardaker wanted to go it would have been easy to panic buy like Saints did last year. But hes gone with Sutty.

Hell depending on your definition, i'd say Hardaker and Bjb, and to a lesser extent watkins only became first team regulars under Mac.

But no, there's absolutely no evidence that Mac gives young lads a go. I don't disagree baldwinson should have got more of a go this year, but to say Mac doesn't pick, and more importantly stick by youngsters, even if they first played because of injury, is rubbish.

All the players you have mentioned (except Ward) only got game time through forced injury, it would be impossible for a SL coach to not bring through any players in 6 years, but he certainly shows no trust in them until they have played about 50 games (sometimes that isn't enough)

Singleton only started playing regularly when we had a lot of injuries and was promptly dropped for any big games in favour of 'experienced' players, despite the fact he was our second best prop in 2014 (after Peacock)

Sutcliffe was picked only because Sinfield and Mcguire were injured at the same time, he like most was a forced selection and was not picked due to his outstanding form in the 19s, he then went on to take his chance extremely well, but come playoff time Mac decided to start an injured Mcguire over Sutcliffe and we lost to Wigan (a team we beat 3 weeks before with Sutcliffe starting in the side), in doing so his lack of faith in youth arguable cost us a GF, correct he gave him a starting place this season but this is his 4th in total
BEST EXAMPLE ^^^

Keinhorst has virtually only ever been played when we have injuries, despite how well he plays he is usually pushed back out the team for bigger names, just look at this season where he has easily out performed Ablett but still find himself on the bench

Golding 15 appearances
Handley 40 appearances
Lilley 24 appearances
Walters 32 appearances
Have ANY of those appearances not been FORCED through injury?

BJB and Watkins were clearly already planned to be our starting right edge before he got there, who else could he of even played there?

On top of that you have occasions like last year where Mac played with one half/ no hooker instead of just picking Robbie Ward for a few games
Or player like Minns (who has scored more SL tries that any of our players this season) who were totally disgaurded

I would also add that Mac shows little ambition to develop any young players, of all the players who have come through in the last few years, very few have become technically better, just bulked up to the point of being able to do what they could already do in the 19s only against bigger men

This is obvious in players that have clear flaws, like Handly under the high ball, something that has not improved in the last 2 years

Minns has done well at HKR, but we have Watkins, Moon and Keinhorst who you're already complaining gets dropped and now you complaining about Minns...its a 25 man squad, you can't keep them all.

I was disappointed Robbie Ward didn't get some game time last year but apparently he largely unimpressed the Hunslet players/staff with a poor effort/attitude whilst on DR so only has himself to blame. He's hardly knocking down doors since.

As pointed last week, Keinhorst has played well this year, but mostly he's been playing centre.

Why did Ablett get picked or why did as you put he go for "experienced" players......well you answer your own question....for their experience. In a team that lost a lot of leaders last year, Ablett is now one of main ones really, do you see Keinhorst being vocal in that way?

As for 2011 and BJB and Watkins. Lee Smith and Delaney had the 2 & 3 shirts and Delaney started the first game at centre, McDermott quickly moved him to 2nd row and started Watkins instead and a younger untried BJB was preferred over an experienced Lee Smith.

And yes young players have to play a decent chunk of games before they're being trusted to be genuine regulars. Do you think Sinfield just strolled into the team in '96 and never left the 17 because he arguably wasn't a first choice strongest 17 pick until 2000. Ablett made his debut in '04, had to wait until late 2007/2008 to be a starter and owed a lot to Toopi being injured to get a run at centre which helped him. JJB had so many set backs and took years for him. Ryan Hall was back up winger in 2008 and got lucky that Webb was injured for e 2008 GF in which Hall and scored and he hasn't looked back. Applies to so many players, don't think this is just some McDermott thing, just some fans with short memories.

I guess the alternative was to scrape into the Top 8 with nothing to play for apart from functioning as nuisance value against those clubs involved in the Top 4. Leeds SL season was effectively over after Easter and the season as a whole on the 6th May at 10pm.

Most fans don't care what's served up as long as their team is winning. Hetherington knows his customers and it's an easy sell for him. The appropriate gloss shall be applied to these Sack-Of-S**t 8's results and lapped up accordingly by the replica kit brigade whose purchases are usually one or two sizes too large in order to hide the results of their dietary inclinations.

Take your point on Minns, but even with injuries to others he was completely ignored at Leeds, and is playing better than a lot of the players you have mentioned (especially Briscoe)

Delaney was hopeless at centre and was a 2nd row mainly in the NRL anyway, Watkins and JJB had already been lined up by Mclenan. Although I take your point that JJB was picked over Smith, he had already been playing for Mac (at London) for a year

You cant say that Mac trusts youth just because coaches before him have taken a long time to blood some players, Sinfield is another example of a player who wasn't trusted enough by previous coaches, we might have won a CC in 2000 if he was picked as he was one of our best players that season iirc
Powell when he was at Leeds trusted an awful lot of young players who were given the chance BECAUSE THEY WERE GOOD and not because of injuries, Walker Mcguire burrow Diskin etc. had a lot of faith put in them and we got the rewards in 2004
Similarly Wane (for all his faults) 1- trusts his acedemy players and 2- more importantly keeps them in the team when they play well

As I mentioned, Mac also has a problem improving the play of players who have broke through, except getting them to bulk up

Take your points about youth development, however guess acid test is how many jewels have slipped away and prospered elsewhere?

Regarding minns, he was sent to London to develop with foster and duckworth. Route to centre blocked by Watkins and moon.
In a low salary cap sport, he could have been waiting awhile to get much game time or coin.

Hull kr's potential long term gain.

I think McD will pick the higher quality ones as and when they come through. in recent times, I think he has had fairly slim pickings.

Possibly, but how much are players going to improve if we just send them on dual reg to be coached in a part time team, often by a part time coach, how good could players like say Liam Hood or Alex Forster (who both looked good on the few opportunities they got) have been if they had stayed at Leeds?

By that same token, how good could Sutcliffe or Singleton etc. be by now if they had have been played more regularly or had a coach )like Powell or Wane) who is better at improving young players

In fairness it is not Macs fault we don't have a reserve team though

Minns wasn't ignored. He got a few games in 2013. We might have injuries now but Watkins and Moon barely a miss any games in 2013. Then he got sent on a season long loan to London just like Ablett and BJB did and then to Featherstone, unfortunately for him the likes of Keinhorst and Handley had chances and impressed and they're obviously keen on Golding so you can't have too many reserve backs in a 25 man squad. Just timing.

Delaney was always a centre in the NRL, but yes he wasn't very good there for us in 2010 but still the decision had to be made to move him and play a younger player at centre. Watkins might have been a shoe in to eventually be a starter but like I said he could've easily gone with Smith on the wing instead. As for BJB being lined up by McClennen, he had about half a dozen appearances and then got sent to Harlequins on loan.....exact same path as Minns but you called that being ignored by McDermott.

And I don't say McDermott's trusts youth, but he doesn't this dislike or problem with them some try and portray.

Also Sinfield in 2000, the CC took place early in the season then and he started half of the several games we had on the bench so had to saying he was our best player that season at the point of the final.

Powell did play youth, he picked McGuire for the 2003 CC Semi classic vs Saints when he turned the game around......he wasn't picked for the final though.

Minns was unlucky in the players he had in front of him, but we didn't even put him in our 25 man squad, that HAS to have been an oversight by Mac, as Peacock was quick to bring him to Hull KR with him

Im not saying he dislikes youth (but he does clearly dislike Baldwinson), but he doesn't back the nearly enough and would rather put square pegs into square holes

Delaney definitely played second row at gold coast, but may have played centre as well sometimes, I didn't watch much NRL back then

I do remember that Sinfield was man of the match in the CC semi in 2000 and also in the game before the final iirc

Powell did drop Mcguire, but it was in place of Burrow, not some older guy picked because of his name, he was still picking players on form, he also picked Bailey Calderwood Diskin Walker and Ward, perhaps if he had gone one more and picked Mcguire over Dunneman the we would have won that game

Quote ="leedsnsouths"Minns was unlucky in the players he had in front of him, but we didn't even put him in our 25 man squad, that HAS to have been an oversight by Mac, as Peacock was quick to bring him to Hull KR with him Im not saying he dislikes youth (but he does clearly dislike Baldwinson), but he doesn't back the nearly enough and would rather put square pegs into square holes Delaney definitely played second row at gold coast, but may have played centre as well sometimes, I didn't watch much NRL back then I do remember that Sinfield was man of the match in the CC semi in 2000 and also in the game before the final iirc Powell did drop Mcguire, but it was in place of Burrow, not some older guy picked because of his name, he was still picking players on form, he also picked Bailey Calderwood Diskin Walker and Ward, perhaps if he had gone one more and picked Mcguire over Dunneman the we would have won that game'" Rugby League Project has Delaney listed as starting centre in every single game he played in the NRL. Also shows you that he used to kick goals for Parramatta and Gold Coast sometimes.....46 from 66 attempts. Here he is wearing the number 4 centre shirt and landing a conversion from near the touch line just like Sinfield Skip to 11:15 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi4iInEkUQI Should've had him kicking against Warrington on the opening night instead of Hardaker.

Quote ="leedsnsouths"Minns was unlucky in the players he had in front of him, but we didn't even put him in our 25 man squad, that HAS to have been an oversight by Mac, as Peacock was quick to bring him to Hull KR with him Im not saying he dislikes youth (but he does clearly dislike Baldwinson), but he doesn't back the nearly enough and would rather put square pegs into square holes Delaney definitely played second row at gold coast, but may have played centre as well sometimes, I didn't watch much NRL back then I do remember that Sinfield was man of the match in the CC semi in 2000 and also in the game before the final iirc Powell did drop Mcguire, but it was in place of Burrow, not some older guy picked because of his name, he was still picking players on form, he also picked Bailey Calderwood Diskin Walker and Ward, perhaps if he had gone one more and picked Mcguire over Dunneman the we would have won that game'" Rugby League Project has Delaney listed as starting centre in every single game he played in the NRL. Also shows you that he used to kick goals for Parramatta and Gold Coast sometimes.....46 from 66 attempts. Here he is wearing the number 4 centre shirt and landing a conversion from near the touch line just like Sinfield Skip to 11:15 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xi4iInEkUQI Should've had him kicking against Warrington on the opening night instead of Hardaker.

Just on this point. If Peacock upon retirement had stayed at Leeds in the same role he's doing at HKR, do you think he'd have brought or even tried to bring Thomas Minns back to Headingley? I think we all know the answer is no.

Also with regards to you praising Wane for giving youngsters a chance. Wane when he first took over gave games to youngsters by the name of

Joe Mellor - Widnes
Jack Hughes - Warrington
Matty Russell - Warrington
Logan Tomkins - Salford
James Greenwood - HKR

All doing well for SL teams after not getting too much of a sniff under Wane. The young FB who dropped that Sinfield bomb in 2012 Playoff called Jack Walker was never given a chance again. Ryan Hampshire made his debut for Wigan around the same time as Sutcliffe did for Leeds, yet only has around a third of Sutcliffe's appearances and Sutcliffe missed out on a increasing his total last year with his knee injury and Hampshire will probably be added to the list of those above.

I always think Powell gets a bit of a pass on the youth front because of what he did at Leeds aswell. Who was/is the latest player he's brought through the cas academy? His team is full of cast-off and imo the be at youngsters in manikin and Springer have come from elsewhere.

What this illustrates is the quantity and quality of youngsters coming through at Wigan - that players of the quality of Russell and Hughes are deemed not good enough but can get a regular game in possibly the best team in SL.

Their academy is the best in SL and something that Leeds need to mirror if the depth of the squad is to be improved.

At Leeds he had limited options due to financial pressures, he also had a crop of incredibly talent youngsters and a club with limited expectations. The use of youth was much easier for him than say for McDermott where success is both needed and expected

Yea but Wigan just produce more players than we do, you must admit that he is more than ready to back a young player, either when someone leaves the club or when they have injuries. Unlike Mac who would rather play with no hooker than one from our academy.

Also if you look at someone like Gildart, he came into the team and was playing better than Gelling (a much more experienced player) so he KEPT his place, that rarely ever happens with Mcdermott
Even last week Mac decided to play Burrow and Mcguire instead of Lilly, now Lilly may not be playing amazingly, but he is the only proper organiser out of the the three, and we look a lot better in shape and structure when he is in the side

I think It says more about Mac that he didn't make a 19 year old kid play with injections.

Actually I forgot he was injured, but lets see if he plays this week, especially with how poor our short kicking game was against Fev

Doubt he'll play again this season unless needed and I can see him having some work done on his shoulder when the seasons finished.

So Jack Hughes, started as a 2nd row, then given the number 4 shirt at Wigan and converted to centre, goes on loan to Hudds and is played at 2nd row, voted their forward of the year and then is allowed to sign for a main rival and is going well again.....meanwhile Wigan sign Isa from Widnes and end up having to play Sutton, normally a prop, at 2nd row also.

If McDermott did that he'd be getting slagged off for a long time, but it's Wigan so it shows how great they do things.

Minns doesn't stay at Leeds in a position we have Watkins, Moon and Keinhorst and because he has an OK season at HKR who finished 11th and it's a massive oversight by McDermott to lose him.

Hughes is loaned out to Hudds and voted their forward of the year in a season they finish 3rd and now going strong for another title contender and they bring in Willie Isa and it's a great sign of how Wane and Wigan operate.