Completely agree.

Completely agree with your point. Just don't think it is relevant here.

Just because dual contracts now exist, it does not stop a player from going on loan to another super league side, rather than dual contract at lower level. McShane for example should have been at a level now that he is ready for super league, not championship. He is not going to get games in Leeds first team due to the two hookers before him, so why is he not out on loan at other super league clubs? Harlequins and Cas as two examples are crying out for players. Wakefield lost an hooker from their plans early on for the season.

Dual registration for me is for players who are not fully ready for super league just yet, and the club want them to work in a full time environment in the mean time to develop. McShane is past that level, as are one or two others, who should have been out on loan at other Super League sides. Of course subject to another club wanting to take them.

i disagree, i think its all part of the same issue

If Mcshane had a quality competition to play in, then it wouldnt be an issue. The Championship for a year wont harm his development, and when we can bring that to a higher level it will improve him as a player ready for next year when he will step up to first team player at leeds.

we arent going to be able to loan out all our youngsters to get first team experience at other SL clubs, thats just not a sustainable way of going about it. Those other clubs have their own youngsters to develop.

there needs to be a bridge between the Under 20s/reserves and SL so that players who might just not be ready or find their paths blocked for a year or two can play somewhere that tests them

But again missing the point in this particular instance. If we were talking about a Jamal Chisholm, or Liam Hood here then your point would be compeletely agreed on. But we are not.

We are talking about Paul McShane, a lad who to many was deemed ready last year, but is been held back due to the two first choice players before him. He is ready for Super League, not just for championship rugby.

He should be out on loan at a Super League club, which would be much better for his is next stage than a championship club or playing reserve rugby.

Dual registrations as I said earlier are great for the likes of Chisholm as I posted above, where the club want to give him a better challenge but still need to control his development by having them at Leeds training. McShane is past that stage.

Loaning out our players to other SL clubs isnt a sustainable way of developing them. Other clubs have their own youngsters, they have salary caps, and they really wont want to be gifting us a better player.

There has to be something separate and that can only be a dual loan system for the championship which itself needs to be of a higher level (and i think it is improving) and that applies to McShane, now. He is losing out on development time for there being nothing there

McShane at the Championship will not improve him. The Championship is a field for super league rejects, or players not deemed ready yet for super league on dual contracts.

I say again, McShane is ahead of that criteria. Your argument is fully valid with players behind McShane in their development.

I also agree that in a couple of years as the Championship improves it may then be a good outlet for this scenario. But right now, McShane should have been out there at a Super League club on loan. I say again, Harlequins and Cas are crying out for loan players, they would snap Leeds hands off to have McShane on loan.

If your argument was true incidentally, why did Wigan take Ainscough away from a duel contract to loan him to Cas? Why have Warrington done the same with Kevin Penny? It's because an opportunity to have them playing at a higher level is far more beneficial to them at this stage.

it is better for him than the U20s/reserves or not playing at all which are the only other real options right now.


Neither Quins or Cas are in desperate need of another hooker, they have Randall and Kay, and Hudson and Netherton, I dont think the Leeds management are stopping him going on loan for no reason

And whilst it would be lovely if we could enter another team in SL to act as a feeder clubs for us, it really isnt realistic. McShane would likely be better served getting a loan gig at SL level than championship level, the same as Penny and Ainscough. But it isnt a sustainable development pathway to expect half the league to compete and the other half to act as the next step of the rung for the top halfs youngsters.

Absolutely better than the reserves or not at all. But that is not the only real option, not at all.

It is the only option you are aware of, which is not the same.



Quins have deemed Kay not good enough, and loaned him out themselves. They are short of a quality hooker. Netherton is not performing for Cas (I should know I have been down to a few of their games).

McShane is also not just an hooker, but a good half back also. Don't pigeon hole him to back up your argument.



And of which nobody is suggesting. How have Saints managed to get the likes of Moore and Tyrer loaned out to Super League in the last couple of years. How have Wigan managed it with Mossop and Ainscough? Are you suggesting they are feeder clubs for them?

Look at the success we now see Wigan having with Mossop. Wasn't Moore the best hooker last year in Super League? going on to gain representative honours.

This is the sort of development path Leeds should have had in place. There will always be spaces open up at other Super League clubs for players who are ready.

I am aware of loans to SL clubs. They havent taken me by surprise. I just dont think its a realistic pathway for your youngsters to hope one of the other SL clubs has a desperate need for a player in the same position and that your player is obviously better than any youngsters they have. Its just not really an intelligent way to go about it
im not pigeon holing him, im just stating the obvious facts. Quins and Cas clearly arent desperate for him, thats why he isnt there. We cant force them to take him, train him, and play him


So the development pathway you expect leeds to have in place for our youngsters is

either hope someone gets a season long injury and a club in SL need emergency cover, like Ainscough or hope some other club needs a player and offer it to them like we have with BJB, and to you this seems sustainable?

what do we do if no-one wants to take them on loan from us? What do we do if we see something in a player other clubs dont? what do we do when all these positions are filled? what do we do when our youngster, though a quality player, isnt the best youngster in his position who is also being offered around?

has it not struck you that if the best thing for McShane and Quins was for McShane to be on loan at Quins that is where he would be?

I don't know what to say to you. You are completely missing the point, and come across as not understanding what goes on at other clubs, which I know from many of your posts can not be the case.

I have made this clear earlier. A Club does not set off on a pathway that would mean they have to loan out a player to a super league club at some point. But by the same token it should not stop them from making super league only because that path is blocked by an other player, if they are deemed good enough for Super League.

Players going out on Dual Registrations are players at that next stage of development that require another challenge, which is what you alluded to. These players though are not generally regarded as the players who are ready for Super League full stop.

This is the difference in the players I identified. McShane is ready for full time super league. At Leeds his advancement is blocked by having two quality players ahead of him. Leeds should have know that last year, when they knew the other two players still had this season left on their contracts. In the close season they should have done something about it.

They didn't but that does not stop them from loaning out in mid season if the opportunity arises. Already this season we have seen Ainscough and Penny pulled off dual registrations in order to be loaned to super league clubs. We now also see Bibb, Tuson, and Kirmond loaned to other super league clubs.

Not to mention the success that Saints and Wigan have had previously with Moore and Mossop. Now Saints also loan out Smith and Tyrer to Super League clubs, having done this last season also.

Why do you think they are loaned to super league clubs? it's because it is a far better option. If they can not get first team at your own club, then look at other options to ensure their development does not go backwards.

Everything you have argued is based on there not been an opportunity for Leeds to loan out McShane. You do not know that at all. Just as I can not say definately that an opportunity did arise. But I would say with confidence that should Leeds make McShane available clubs would come calling.

Why wouldn't clubs call "on spec" if they were interested and thought they needed to bolster the hooking position (let's be realistic, given the lack of senior experience McShane has at 7 no SL club in their right mind is going to take him on loan and start him in the halves)?

I reckon they will have done. I am trying to be fair to Smokey here by not proclaiming something I don't have proof on.

I know for a fact though that Cas asked for him on loan last season, and were turned down.

and it is at this point i am saying we have an issue. McShane isnt ready to be a number 1 hooker at an SL club. He would be best served getting maybe 15-20 first grade games this season. But no club wants to take him on and give him that, and we have other players. This is where we, as a game, have a problem. Players who are too good for u20s/reserves but not good enough to force their way into SL squads (YET) dont have anywhere to go. The only option is to hope some other SL club has a dirth of talent in that position and cant get an import in so they will take him on loan.

Whilst in McShanes case it would be best for him to go to another SL club, it isnt always possible and there is nothing to help if that is the case. And clubs should be planning a pathway for there players that isnt u20s then SL, because the u20s wont always prepare them

and no-one would be adverse to that happening, its not that i dont want to loan him out, Simply that it isnt a good thing that we dont have anywhere (bar SL) that McShane could spend this season without it being to the the detriment of his development. A high quality championship with plenty of dual reg players would do this. It would offer us a place for McShane to play to a high level that isnt dependant on another SL club taking him from us


we have done it with BJB, and that will be very good for his development. Fantastic for us over the next few years. And you are right, we should have other options to ensure their continued development, but we need options that arent dependant on other clubs needing a player we can provide

I'm not buying the idea of discounting the champtionship.
Where did Huddersfield get their replacement hooker from after having seen Scott Moore go back?

Scrum half.



I think you are talking about Lunt? He's been with them a while now. But he came via the championship having been rejected earlier.

Which we have already covered that above.

So it appears everything we have been arguing over is not the principle of loaning to a super league club or championship. It's that you don't think he is ready for full time super league yet, and I do. And I do think that. But now I can see why you have been arguing.

I have already stated I agree with what you were saying about the championship over reserve rugby. I just think that should happen at an earlier stage of the development that McShane is at now.

I still think the club's failed here in not identifying an opportunity for McShane in the close season, despite knowing that you already have two hookers ahead of him under contract. I can only guess that the idea was that they always wanted to go with two hookers, and in case one was injured. But considering the pathetic treatment of McShane against Hull KR, I am back to the thinking the club made a mistake.

This may seem like a daft question but when do the kids go back to school in Yorkshire after the Easter holidays.

The reason I'm asking is that the England U15 and U16 squad apparently seems to be almost entirely Yorkshire based, and they flew out for the French tour yesterday
The Wigan schools are back in on Monday. I just doesn't seem believable that there are no kids over here picked for the tour on performance.

it varies. some on monday,some a week on monday

Thanks for the info, I thought there must be a logical reason.

My 2 go back a week on monday both in the ls6 area.

My girls go back a week on Monday.

Not to worry.

Lets hope whoever got rejected from this tour from your neck of the wood takes it on the chin. One day one of your lot might be the reason why we beat the Aussies!

and whats it got to do with you?

Well no one on the York office has discussed it whilst I've been there mate.

I do not care much for your tone.

Oooh I say, someone did get touchy didn't they?