Who has the best ratio for championships won

Wayne Bennett at Brisbane or Tony Smith at Leeds








That Wayne bloke must be sh17e

He did what coaches are paid to do and made a decision.

Marcus Bai doesn't play silly sods in his own in-goal and this whole debate drifts into the winds of time as a non-event.

i would agree andy, my point is it was a bloody stupid decision

Daniel Anderson is a great coach because he wins trophies on a regular basis, not one ever three years- compare his record to Smith's did Smith ever win all trophies in one season? - end of!!

Andy what I am saying is to just take the two GF wins and say Smith is a great coach is to overlook lots of dross and poor stuff in the intervening years - so to say because he won two big games as an example of how good he was is equally contrite.

Finally all this about Smith being great because he is the only Leeds coach since Francis to win two championships is more a reflection of his predecessors rather than his quality as an uber-coach?

Hands up anyone who hasn't made one, either at work or otherwise...

He based his selection partly on the dreadful performance by Mcdermott the previous week.

sits and waits for gareth to say his hand is up!

i'm not disputing that. i'm just redressing the arguements that smith was a golden bollox.
read my posts on this and i think it's a well balanced arguement.
smith did a great job at times but i honestly think he should have done better at times.
the final in question is one such point

Which would be his first stupid decision...

he had a mare danny, but so did the other 16.

He made the wrong decision - even you can accept that?

And if Calderwood hadn't scored the try he did and Ward and Sinfield were so tired from having to play with 16 men all game perhaps Cooke would not have been able run past them so easily?

If and buts?

I agree but you cant get it right all the time.

He made mistakes like anyone else and his unwillingness to admit mistakes peed me off at times.

Smith is one of if not the most successful coach in our history so I'm happy to dwell on the positives rather than the negatives.

And the big deal is?

FFS not even someone with your ego David can claim to have a mistake free decision making slate. It happens. If all you can find is one mistake in four years which included two titles and a World Club Challenge then I'd say that's the sign of a bloody good coach.

other omitted achievements added!

I don't think Tad is making unreasonable points, but he's being lumped in with Eccleshill's comments/approach.

I think there are three broad categories of opinion.

The first likes to strip the debate down to the very basics by concentrating almost exclusively on what Leeds won under TS's stewardship. They make the not unreasonable argument that the silverware is a better performance than any other Leeds coach and as a result he should be justly lauded. This group also has a tendency to dismiss any criticism of TS. For some because it seems heretical to them and for others because they take the view that mistakes will always be made and to focus on them seems churlish in comparison to the 4 trophies collected.

The second group fully accepts the merits of TS's achievements but feel there were times where his approach didn't achieve the results that maybe could have been achieved. They might point to the Challenge Cup final selection decisions of 2005, the use of Ali Lauitiiti, the selection of Francis Cummins or the 'mobile props' approach of 2006 and ponder if maybe more could have been achieved.

Thirdly there is davidbyw.

Ego - interesting critisism coming from "Mr I know best"

Smith made plenty of mistakes - the fact that seems to have been overlooked by many on here, you included. As I said earlier not everything under was a bed of roses - the numerous poor performances in big games - we lost far more big games than we ever won under Smith - have been swept under the carpet in a wave of adulation.

Which is why history is only ever written by winners.

Who credits the 2004 GF success to Daryll Powell and now claims we only won the Championship last year because the players knew Smith was leaving.
Any failure in between is laid firmly at Smiths door.

I think smith did make mistakes but so did the players.
The cup final senior admitted he shouldn't of insisted on playing(i know smith had the final call but senior had a say in it.)
During that final bai had a miraculous brain fart,calders could of smashed the kick through(2nd half)dead in the lead up to cooke's try and despite all that we lost by 1 point.We lost the grand final to the better team on the night,who incidentally had cheated the salary cap to hire a 6 week mercenary. So there are mistakes by many during smith's tenure but to blame him completely is totally inaccurate and wrong imo.The 2006 season was blighted by injuries/lack of depth and poor form and again imo not all this can be placed at smith's door,he'll always be a double championship winning coach and wcc winner and LEGEND in my imo.

Define "big" games.

I make it four finals during the Smith era of which Leeds won two.

Each of those finals was preceded by a semi-final/final eliminator victory, so that's four of those won as well.

Are we including World Club Challenges btw?

I'll quite happily acknowledge that Smith made mistakes. Every coach makes mistakes. Every player makes mistakes. Every referee and administrator makes mistakes.

Fact is that even during his mistake ridden tenure, Smith was still capable of producing results beyond those of any Leeds coach in the modern era, something for which a vocal minority seem incapable of giving him any credit.

And as usual it descends into a bun fight.

I honestly dont think you will find many coaches who focus on the attention to detail like Smith. This means that completion rates and silly errors should be kept to an absolute minimum. Smith very much prefers risk free/basic no frills rugby.
I think this and the fact he is not a confident public speaker means that he did not endear himself to alot of fans, he doesnt come across as a likeable/jovial sort of bloke. This means that those fans who did not find him a likeable sort of character will jump on his mistakes.
I personally think he did a great job. You cant really ask for much more than what he acheived, this is not to say however that he couldnt have done better with the resources he had in 2005 and 2006.
Mclennan on the other hand is very much a people person and as has been mentioned an excellent man manager. This has the opposite effect to Smith in that people will naturally think he's a nice bloke, this coupled with the fact that he likes to play an attractive brand of rugby means people will be more willing to forgive poor performances/losses.

The thing that remains to be seen is if Mclennan can give the team a good kick up the backside when they need it and isnt too matey with them. If a coach becomes too much of a friend rather than a boss, he could lose his authority.

To sum it up, Smith's acheivements were great, but he could have done better.

Mclennan allows more player freedom and more attractive rugby, time will tell if this will be as succesful. I personally think this will win us some trophies, but to beat Smiths achievements will be a tough ask. Either way, provided the matches are entertaining and we are competing I will be happy.

hmmmmmm buns!!!

can i say this thread has been brilliant. reasoned arguements both ways and no trolling,just a good debate.
shame i had to leave to drop my turd sample in at the hospital

If Mrs Tad finds out you called her that you'll be in the turd alright, and no mistake.