Well hear I am. Do you really think that Walters would have made any difference at all? The whole side is mentally shot apart from perhaps Ward, Cuthbertson, Moon and Lilley. The only reason Walters was on the bench was because there was no one else - check out our injuries. Had we played the juniors would they have really coped better against a very good Cas side on the night.

I would have more respect for your comments if you posted as often with praise for the coach during our long successful period and not just popping up with the negative stuff when things have turned sour. We have been league leaders for the majority of the season, we have won the Cup but the new format is just one step too far mentally for the players. No amount of tinkering with junior players would have stopped the missed tackles of the regular players.

You underestimate the mental and emotional effect of Wembley and the recovery time required on top of the injuries two years running. As AG has pointed out this year after the Cup Final we went head to head with a top 4 rival fresh from a week off then a tough away fixture in France followed by a short turn around for a care free Cas in better form after their slump. All must win games for our goal of the LLT and with playoff pressures.

Form and momentum go hand in hand and obviously for the players it was three steps too far and IMO it was more a mental exhaustion than physical as we were just not playing the defensive patterns that we have done all season. I will be amazed if we can turn it around now but who knows with this group they certainly have the motivation with 3 legends moving on, so it is not a lack of that.

Firstly I post when I do out of choice and work commitments, not that it's relevant. Regarding Walters, yes he would have made a difference, he would have given a couple of completely knackered back rowers a 20 minute rest and would have been at least as useful as they were given their tired performances. Delaney n particular has been busted for as long as I can remember and a break of 20 mins old have meant he would have been more effective when on the field.

McDermott has done lots right this season, he has promoted an entreprising way of playing which has been good to watch, but that doesn't excuse him from warranted criticism of making the same old errors time and time again. Like the players he's not perfect but is immune to criticism in your eyes.

Its not the loss of one player though is it? That is the straw breaking the camels back. We currently have 3 injured pivots. THat affects our creativity.

We are missing 2 of our biggest attacking threats in Watkins and Burrow. Although watkins was there in body, he had no impact on the game, and clearly not fit.

We are missing 2 of our best middle tacklers in JJB and Aiton.

We have fringe forwards like Achurch and Keinhorst out.

There is clearly some double counting in there, but thats Aiton, Burrow, Sutcliffe, JJB, Achurch (permanantly), Keinhorst and Watkins all out. There is only so far you can flex within your squad. More backs injured could have been coped with better with Handley well established this season and Goulding being around and not really able to contribute.

Unfortunately at the moment we are witnessing a team imploding before our eyes.
Tired and jaded with key players not performing, Ablet is out of sorts, time seems to have caught up with JP.
Our defence was porous all night, every time cas attacked we looked likely to concede points. As for leaving Walters on the bench . Can't fathom that out ,which ever way I think about it.
Quite obviously we are suffering injuries and loss of form at the wrong end of the season.
We could have done with JJB last night he would have got stuck in. I also think the loss of sutcliffe has hit us hard.
The lad was playing well, his omission has limited our three quarter permutations.
Who knows we may have in us one supreme effort to get old trafford. Can't see us winning at the Giants. So the supreme effort will be away from home.
Finally, full credit to cas they came and played some good rugby. What Powell has done this season is first class. More so when he lost the services of carney.

Walters is only there because of our serious injury list to key players. Last week he made 6 tackles and 3 misses. So why do you think he would have plugged a gap? Also IMO our players are mentally knackered and not physically, so a 20 minute rest on the bench will not cure that.

I have no problem with positive criticism but you always blame the coach even when it is the players that make the errors and mistakes. Mac has shown he can motivate and he can make a good game plan and he can get the team to play attractive rugby and he can get the team to play to good defensive patterns. So do you think he prepared them differently in the last 3 weeks? Do you think he told them to take it easy in the middle of the field? did he tell McGuire to lose his cool? or Sinfield to get injured? Of course you don't.

So take into consideration the difficult situation the coach finds himself in when the team and individual form collapses and except that a bit of tinkering with the bench for 20 minutes would not have made any difference as the malaise has spread throughout the side. I do not have the answer (other than hypnosis

) and I guess neither does Mac or indeed anyone on here.

and perhaps if you thought the coach wasn't god like and immune from criticism then I may respect your posts.
are you seriously saying leaving a back rower on the bench unused was a good idea?? incredible

I think this debate about the inclusion of Walters is akin to rearranging the deck-chairs on the Titanic.

The whole team has looked spent for the last two games. Tinkering with player rotations at this stage will have a negligible effect on results. We just have to hope that a bit of a longer break for the next game plus any fresh bodies returning will be enough to turn things around.

No many came out of last night with lots of credibility. But thought Lilley applied himself very well at hooker. His effort was tremendous. He had nothing in the tank come the end of the game. The boy did well.

Leeds' win % is probably in single figures when they have adopted to use 1/2 subs not used over the last few years. Speaks volumes.

Aiton gave us good ball distribution and a massive amount of tackling in the middle of the park. Weve tried to immitate his attacking prowess but forgot his defensive duties. Sinfield or Lilley playing hooker means they defend out wide leaving the remaining forwards to do the extra work plus attack too, its just too much for them, no wonder they all look so tired. Im sure Stevie Ward could get to all the play the balls and distribute and most importantly sure up the middle defence leaving Sinfield/McGuire in the halves. Unfortunately both of these have their best days behind them and it was highlighted by the speed and game play by Luke Gale. If he isnt what we need for the next few years i dont know what is. Sutcliffe/McGuire isnt the answer.

Another one dismissing a Sutcliffe-McGuire combination.

The same combination which played in the wins against Wigan at home, away in Perpignan, away at Castleford and at Langtree Park.

I'd be happy to go with Sutcliffe, still a lot to learn but understandable. I think that's part of the reason we've beefed up the pack.

One thing and it might seem like nothing, but I wouldn't give him the number 13 shirt next year. Doesn't need the added pressure of taking over that particular shirt number. Let Cuthbertson or Ward have it.

But collapsed and went missing when the momentum shifted, or more importantly when Aiton had left the field. And of course you conveniently seem to forget Warrington at home, Huddersfield away, and Widnes Away. Is four out of seven mentioned what you would expect from a top four club?

We need to make sure the rest of the team can take on what they will not give us, by declaring that the partnership.

Four wins from six games against other sides in the top 8? Yeah, I'd take that over the course of the season thanks.

Is your argument in the first sentence seriously that the half backs were less effective when the team was on the back foot? That's pretty much what happens in any game when the team is on the back foot isn't it?

Your passenger Delaney was top tackler with 50

Your knackered and busted Delaney made 50 tackles

That's why he looked knackered Tbh. He's a good player with a lot of heart but that doesn't mean he isn't shot.

You miss the point. The clear inference from certain posters was to question his selection. His top tackle count of 50 answers that emphatically.

He's clear not shot. The reality is that if you make 50 tackles in a game you are going to look worn out. He is being over used and under rested. The bench user on Thursday was woeful, and had a large part to play in us losing the game

You forgot to put how many misses. Misses that were crucial to the result. Misses that were made out of fatigue, due to those extra tackles, due to no hooker defending in the middle.

Wasn't it six misses?

Are YOU deliberately trying to miss the point here? It seems so. Delaney looks knackered exactly because he is being asked to do this amount of work. How many tackles did he miss, or perhaps more importantly how many did he not even make it to. These are the impacts that over playing people have on a team. Of course he should start the game, but if he gets 20 minutes rest and makes 35 tackles instead of 50 with Walters making the other 15 then he is not only in better shape for that game, but also next week and the week after. Tired players make poorer quality decisions, this is fundamental, there is never a reason to flog a player when there is a fit and fresh one on the bench.

How do calculate the tackle count if there are 3 in the tackle do they all get awarded the tackle?

The most alarming tackle stat is Kallum Watkins having to do 39 tackles because he's having to defend further in because he had both McGuire and Sinfield outside him.

Arguably our best strike player and he's having to tackle like a 2nd rower. But apparently modern day hookers it's not important that that can defend, pffft.

I did not say it was a good idea. But I am saying it would not have made the slightest bit of difference to the result and to pretend so is incredible. We are talking about Walters as the replacement you know the one who against Catalans made a total of 6 tackles 3 misses and no carries. Is that the sort of match winning impact you are craving?