What confidence do the reigning SL and World Club Champions acquire from beating Wakefield that they couldn't get from beating Manly?

You let the mask slip there, Brian.

Burrow is a half back. He plays like a Union scrum half - not a league hooker. We had two good young hookers - one of which we gave a long term contract to and played in the biggest game of the year against Manly (where he planily did the business). We now have neither of them at the club, but instead we're loaning in an unwanted Hudds 9.

Hookers are aggresive, strong and key defenders in and around the ruck area, who can dominate in the tackle and take punishment.

This is how it looks to those of us outside the bubble Brian.

I have been critical of McDermott of late but i agree it should never get personal to the man and i have never nor willl i ever boo any coach or player of Leeds. However criticism of McDermott's performance as coach i think is justified, fans have seen enough rugby over the years to be able to see how bad we are structurely in defence & attack. The defeat against Wigan highlighted just how big a gulf their is and i don't just mean the scoreline but in what we need to be doing as a team and what we are currently doing.

DHM - thanks for the definition of a hooker. I agree, they should be strong and key defenders, but I wouldn't have classed Buderus as aggressive. McShane may have done OK against Manly but he's been found out on plenty of other occassions, so I have no problem with him being loaned out. I think we would be wrong to be playing Liam Hood every week immediately, countless players have come through too soon in our and other teams and been ruined; loaning him out to a Championship side will allow him to get used to playing against men, and give him some great experience so that hopefully, next season, he can play every week.

ThePrinter - thank you for your reply. I would agree that the game against Wigan was disappointing but we had a superb performance against Manly, along with good performances against Warrington at home, Salford away, London at home, and Catalans at home, so I think we've shown what we can do, we just need to bring some consistency back.

Hopefully, no player that plays at senior level has to be coached to respect the ball, and my response to this would focus less on the coach and again, more on the players. Our first team players know what they can and should be doing week in, week out, and I think for some of them, this rut we are in is making them desperate. Many of the knock-ons aren't coming from loose passes but simply from carrying the ball; I don't think this is due to lack of respect for the ball, I think this is due to desperation. We've all seen players fluff try opportunities because they can see it being scored before they've done the work, and I think that's what we're seeing every week. Stevie Ward was brilliant on Friday and he had the same coaching last week as everyone else, but made far fewer mistakes; again, I think this is because there's no pressure on him as a new, young player. While I think desire is an issue for one or two of the lads, we can't doubt it in the ever-reliables and I think it's this desire which is causing the desperation. I stand by my point on silly penalties but would say that most of the players who give these away, also do a lot of other, good things, so it's not as simple as just dropping them.

RE your notes on individual players, obviously we all see different things and I would agree that BJB was poor on Friday, but he still has that potential to do good things, as does Zak. I can't help but think judgements are being made on these two, particularly Zak, too quickly - this is only his first full season after all! I agree Delaney looks tired but again, with injuries and the way the fixture list has worked out, I can't see how we could reasonably afford to give him a rest. I don't agree that we haven't had many games where we could say 1-17 won it for us - in 2011 we showed great team effort at Cas away, Catalans at home, Cas at home, Wakey at home, and right through the play-offs. This year, we've had Manly, Salford away, London at home, Catalan at home and Leigh away (not sure that really counts!). I think that any team, under any coach, only has a handful of games at most per season where 1-17 can put their hands up and say they all played pretty well.

I agree it would be great to see a couple of young players tested in this second half of the season, and agree with your choices! Like I said in a different post though, it's important not to play these younger guys too much so quickly because ultimately, it will wear them out mentally and physically. I'm not sure what else you can expect Mac to say - obviously he's disappointed when we lose and has to acknowledge that we're not reaching our potential, so what else can he say?

Brian,

Will you be allowing Keith Senior to get a few games this season?

I would say, give it a go!

Sorry rhinowinorlose but I have a very sort attention span and your posts are far too long.

Is there an abridged version?

To be fair their has been plenty of criticism on here of players too not just the coach, sometimes even more so. The consistancy thing is the key thing, i've said before that i think this team can still produce at times and wouldn't at all surprise me if somehow we beat Wigan in CC and/or go on another Grand Final run but at the moment that feels like a toss of a coin whether or not we click for those games. I don't agree with people who think we are saving ourselves for later and with the exception of the 2nd half vs Wigan i don't think its been down to a lack of effort, i merely included that idea previously because its the few of some others.

What is worrying me is that we aren't seeing anything that suggests next year we might end up any better than around 5th/6th again and again relaying on things clicking come playof time. Eventually we will fail and a 5th-8th league finish with early playoff exit isn't good enough and come to think of it even if we do win, whilst great, it will become tiresome suffering 16-wins 11-losses records throughout the season with a couple of heavy defeats to big teams. I would like to see us challenging for around top 3 at least which means a record of around 20-wins 7-losses. (i except you can't win every game).

I think what people can see is that players aren't playing to their potential, even are better players could probably still improve. And again whilst i realise players can't be at the top of their game every week, their are too many, too often, too far away from their best. People will obviously look towards McDermott as coach as he should deem this unacceptable but it kind of looks like he's either accepting it or just doesn't know what to do to change this, neither make him look great tbh. And as we've agreed we don't think its a lack of effort being applied then its a quality issue and as we know these players do have the quality at times so its up to McDermott to make sure it comes out more often if the players efforts are there which they are IMO.

Brian McDermott's record as a 1st Grade SL head-coach:

*2006 - 7th
2007 - 9th - 23 pts
2008 - 9th - 22 pts
2009 - 11th - 22 pts
2010 - 13th - 14 pts

*McDermott took over from Tony Rea for Round 20 of 2006 and took the Harlequins from a then 9th to finish the Regular Rounds 7th.

Leeds had finished 2010 under McClennan in 4th - 35 pts

2011 - 5th - 31 pts
2012 - ?

There appears to be a pattern forming. I wonder if the Leeds CEO can make it out yet?

A Decline would be the Logical Pattern TVOC.

Wait till Rhinos Feckkwitt (Keith Swiftcorn) joins this discussion....!!

In fairness Webb has always been indisciplined, it's a problem many of our players have had, under Smith, McLennan and still under McDermott.

I think the OP made some fair points.

By that logic why can't Lee Smith recapture his confidence and form from winning the Harry Sunderland trophy in 2008?

A winning run that gets all the players into positive habits is just as important in restoring confidence as reflecting on collective past achievements. The defeats to Wigan and Warrington will probably be looming larger at the back of the players' minds than the WCC at the moment.

I rest my case from the second post on this thread.

Fantastic.

I'm not stupid - just lazy.

What's your excuse?

Hi everyone,

- ThePrinter - I agree, I don't think we can be saving ourselves for the second part of the season either, surely we can't be choosing to play badly! I think it's far too early for us to be thinking about next year (though I'm sure the Club are), but again I agree with you that if things remain as they are, it will become too tiring to be winning the league from 5th or below. In terms of this year, obviously 9th is well below par but if we win our game in hand next Monday we will go up to 8th and will only be 2 points below Saints in 4th. It's important not to forget as well that we've played most of our games to date away from home, and we've already played Wire, Wigan and Saints twice. I understand people looking towards Mac for an answer but like I say I really believe that it's desperation which is causing these performances, and I think only the players can choose to let go of this and crack on. The problem is that you can't just drop half the team because then you're not giving anyone a fair chance at winning the next game - not the young players coming through, nor the players you keep. I also think he's right to keep faith in some of the senior players who could click at any time.

- tvoc - I've been waiting for someone to mention London!! London was a completely different situation to what we have at Leeds; guys don't play for London because they want to play there, they play for London because they want to play rugby, the loyalty is just not the same. Nor did they have the salary cap budget that we have (that is not the case this year). The league standings alone do not tell the story of that particular season, and where I have cited previous standings I have tried to tell a bit more of a story of that season.

If Wakefield turn us over next Monday, I dont for one minute think the crowd will be cheering the lads on! - Do you?

FFS.....who let Damo log in under this new user name?

London's record under McDermott is indicative of the direction he took them over the course of just over four full seasons and that's a longer spell in charge than any coach has been given at Headingley during the SL Era. Despite what you've said London have charted fairly respectable finishes despite the 'mercenaries' they've recruited during the SL Era prior to Brian McDermott's contribution: 4, 2, 7, 8, 11, 6, 8, 5, 10, 6 - a couple of above average finishes, a couple of below average finishes but overall pretty consistently somewhere in the mid-pack.

McDermott presided over a steady slide down the rankings except for the season they briefly stood still: 7, 9, 9, 11, 13 - Powell at least started to reverse the trend with the 12th placed finish last season although whether that will continue this year remains to be seen.

It's a personal trend McDermott is currently extending at what is one of the supposed have clubs. Can he turn it around? Can a club like Leeds take that chance or even afford to wait and see?

I'd highlight a Regular Round form-line through the clubs Leeds should be judged against, which over this latest switch-coach period have been Wigan, Warrington and St Helens.

2010 - Pl 6, Won 3, Drawn 0, Lost 3, Pts For 127, Pts Agst 161 (avg scr 21 - 27)

2011 - Pl 6, Won 0, Drawn 1, Lost 5, Pts For 108, Pts Agst 202 (avg scr 18 - 34)

2012 - Pl 6, Won 1, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 82, Pts Agst 202 (avg scr 14 - 34)

I'd say that amounts to a worrying record of diminishing returns as Leeds settle back amongst the teams making up the numbers. When Bradford started their slide they went 3, 5, 9, 10, 10 - Leeds have gone 1, 4, 5 and are looking like slipping lower still this season, is that the blueprint we should follow?

Had Tony Smith returned to Leeds in 2011 and coached the club to an identical 5th placed finish, a CC Final and the SL champions, then followed it up in 2012 with victory in the WCC, it would have been regarded by many on here as the second coming of the messiah.

Even 'Lenny the Kirkstaller' would have ditched Jesus for Smith.

McDermott stays IMO... he's earned it.

I can see why you'd say that.

He certainly seems to have made you happier.

Peacock's equal number of penalties given away to Webb's are I imagine more for sloppy technical offences in the many tackles he makes. Does 'Brian' really think that Webb's "agressiveness" in the form of petulant back chat makes up for agressiveness in the forwards ?

What are you talking about?

Since someone pointed out that we were in a similar position last year (getting stuffed by Saints and Wire at this stage of the season by 40 odd points) I have thought well maybe the lads will turn it around again and win matches at the important end of the season. BUT, I still can't get away from the fact that if this is true then the club are expecting fans to pay good money to watch sub-standard performances up to July. How do Leeds expect fans to keep turning up week after week to watch a team playing 2nd rate rugby. Attendances will suffer, having a knock-on effect throughout the club.