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| Quote ="Gotcha"If you are going to base an argument on using them, then of course they have to be correct. Otherwise why bring them up in the first place?'"
I've not had any problem that he found a problem with my stats. If someone spots a flaw with them by all means do tell so we don't get incorrect results (the error I made was a genuine mistake and I didn't knowingly post flawed stats).
The issue was his "provocative" behaviour and silly challenge, he had no need to do that if he really was just concerned about getting correct stats and conclusions. If his motives are just about stats that are either incorrect or not like-for-like comparisons then why not have the consistency to tell you the following was not a like-for-like comparison?
Quote ="Gotcha"Although when looking at stats, it's always worthwhile looking at the detail if you want to use them. We have talked about the fundamental importance of Peacock. Last year he made 4040 metres on his own, compared with 2810 metres in 2012, and 1618 metres in 2011. If that is not a dramatic swing in the importance of one player, I don't know what is.
By contrast Kylie made 1860 metres in 2013, 2005 metres in 2012. Bailey made 750 metres in 2013, 1034 in 2012. Brett Delany made 1480 metres in 2013, and made 2201 in 2012.'"
Why has he not spent the following week quoting your "it's always worthwhile looking at stats in detail if you want to use them" line several times?
Because it's really not the stats or conclusions that bother him, it's the person who posted them. I might have inaccurate stats but I don't have a vendetta like him. |
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| Anybody else find it strange/questionable that tvoc hasn't posted an explanation of why the stats were wrong even though I've offered to apologise and post corrected stats like he wanted me to. (Or for several days before that when asked by several posters)
It surely couldn't have anything to do with him saying if he's wrong in what he's posted he'll never post on here again!  |
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Hey up the 3rd Doom Brother has finally arrived, I was wondering when you were going to make an appearance. Have the other 2 had you making the voodoo dolls of Leeds players ready to start sticking pins in this Sunday?'"
Unlike you I can objectively see what is happening on the pitch in front of me. I don't need a load of meaningless stats to tell me whether they are playing well or not. Anyone with half a brain can see the standards of the team and the league as a whole are dropping - the fact that that you cannot says much about your ability to comprehend simple stuff.
This will be a very interesting season can this ageing pack of forwards drive the team on or will it be another season of under achievement for the biggest club in the league? |
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"A Cloud Gazer of Doom Brothers
'"
You seem to be hanging on Printer's every word?
That says all we need to know about you!! |
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Anybody else find it strange/questionable that tvoc hasn't posted an explanation of why the stats were wrong even though I've offered to apologise and post corrected stats like he wanted me to. (Or for several days before that when asked by several posters)
It surely couldn't have anything to do with him saying if he's wrong in what he's posted he'll never post on here again!
'"
Not at all - the fact you posted complete b0ll0cks is the point here - so if I were you I would run along and save myself from further ridicule!! |
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Anybody else find it strange/questionable that tvoc hasn't posted an explanation of why the stats were wrong even though I've offered to apologise and post corrected stats like he wanted me to. (Or for several days before that when asked by several posters)
It surely couldn't have anything to do with him saying if he's wrong in what he's posted he'll never post on here again!
'"
You admitted yourself they were wrong.
I would consider yourself lucky that tvoc is saving you from more embarrassment by not highlighting the detail, and instead is just waiting for you to simply change them and discuss. I know your young, but age isn't really relevant when "being the bigger man", and you had the opportunity for that.
You never really have a problem fighting your corner, so if you are so sure of your view, why not just debate on that instead of stating misinterpreted stats? |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"You seem to be hanging on Printer's every word?'"
Hark at the little kettle calling the teapot black...... 
Quote ="Sal Paradise"That says all we need to know about you!!'"
And that my little Cloud Gazer is such an arrogant stupid assumption that's it says so much more about you.....
Quote ="Sal Paradise"Unlike you I can objectively see what is happening on the pitch in front of me. I don't need a load of meaningless stats to tell me whether they are playing well or not. Anyone with half a brain can see the standards of the team and the league as a whole are dropping - the fact that that you cannot says much about your ability to comprehend simple stuff.
This will be a very interesting season can this ageing pack of forwards drive the team on or will it be another season of under achievement for the biggest club in the league?'"
Even more astonishing arrogance from someone who can apparently watch a full 80 mins game and perceive every nuance and individual contribution......
and if you don't understand the importance of the use of stats in the modern game then I would keep that fact to yourself.
Under achievement ????? where have you been for the last 8 years |
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Anybody else find it strange/questionable that tvoc hasn't posted an explanation of why the stats were wrong even though I've offered to apologise and post corrected stats like he wanted me to. (Or for several days before that when asked by several posters)'"
Where's this going now?
You posted some stats back on page 4 of this thread - I said some of them were wrong and incidentally they were wrong in a way that materially effected the outcome if wishing to use them to make comparisons with the following season. That they were wrong in a way that appeared to support your expressed view (when the correct figures were less supportive/supportive of the opposite expressed view) I'm sure was purely coincidental.
Eventually you agreed with me (page 9) so finally we both agree =#FF0000that 'your stats' for 2012 were wrong. In those circumstances I think it unlikely that anyone should find it strange or questionable that the person responsible for making the mistake (and accepting this to be the case) is also the one who is responsible for correcting the mistake.
They might find it strange/questionable that the correction is taking so long given the time that has passed since the error was allegedly also discovered by the person who made it - 10 days ago now is it? They may also find it strange/questionable that in order for the correction to be made it first requires any direction from the person who first called out that an error had occurred.
Fact is I'm not the one responsible for your error nor am I the one responsible for correcting it.
Quote ="ThePrinter"It surely couldn't have anything to do with him saying if he's wrong in what he's posted he'll never post on here again!
'"
Unlikely given that it was your mistake and it's something you've admitted to making.
__________
Now when can we expect to see your corrected figures?
For someone who once pleaded:
Quote ="The Printer"=#FF0000but check the stats I've posted. All forwards improved in key areas in 2013. I don't say things out of blind loyalty, I say them because they hold some weight.'"
you seem oddly reluctant to provide them despite now offering to do so. You can't just play the man forever, at some point you're gonna have to play the ball or accept people will likely assume those stats didn't hold much weight afterall. |
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| Quote ="tvoc"Where's this going now?
You posted some stats back on page 4 of this thread - I said some of them were wrong and incidentally they were wrong in a way that materially effected the outcome if wishing to use them to make comparisons with the following season. That they were wrong in a way that appeared to support your expressed view (when the correct figures were less supportive/supportive of the opposite expressed view) I'm sure was purely coincidental.
Eventually you agreed with me (page 9) so finally we both agree =#FF0000that 'your stats' for 2012 were wrong. In those circumstances I think it unlikely that anyone should find it strange or questionable that the person responsible for making the mistake (and accepting this to be the case) is also the one who is responsible for correcting the mistake.
They might find it strange/questionable that the correction is taking so long given the time that has passed since the error was allegedly also discovered by the person who made it - 10 days ago now is it? They may also find it strange/questionable that in order for the correction to be made it first requires any direction from the person who first called out that an error had occurred.
Fact is I'm not the one responsible for your error nor am I the one responsible for correcting it.
Unlikely given that it was your mistake and it's something you've admitted to making.'"
Interesting that you should highlight in red that my stats for 2012 were wrong.
But you claimed something different back on page 5....
Quote ="tvoc"The total metres and total stats for the two seasons are not comparable - both are incomplete in terms of all first grade games played but the 2012 stats are MORE incomplete than 2013.'"
"More incomplete than 2013" you said. So you were of the opinion that 2013 was incomplete too last week, now it's only 2012 this week.
Like you said, the total metres and total tackles are incomplete and therefore would be completely pointless to compare them to get any results, but just before that wrote this....
Quote ="tvoc"Four of the six forwards named above actually made fewer carries per game in 2013 when you apply the correct calculation.'"
So if the stats are not like-for-like and cannot be used properly, then why did you use them to announce a result? |
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| The stats you used for 2013 and 2012 were not drawn from the same data set of games from those seasons - or do you disagree?
Both were incomplete in terms of Leeds 1st grade games (as Opta always are) but in this specific instance the relevant part is that 2012 were even more incomplete than 2013 - or do you disagree?
Quote ="ThePrinter"So if the stats are not like-for-like and cannot be used properly, then why did you use them to announce a result?'"
Because I didn't use =#FF0000your incomplete Opta stats with =#FF0000your incorrect assumption on data set when making a comparison.
__________
Now when can we expect to see your corrected figures?
For someone who once pleaded:
Quote ="ThePrinter"=#FF0000but check the stats I've posted. All forwards improved in key areas in 2013. I don't say things out of blind loyalty, I say them because they hold some weight.'"
you seem oddly reluctant to provide them despite now offering to do so.
You can't just play the man forever, at some point you're gonna have to play the ball or accept people will likely assume you either can't provide the stats you've promised or that they didn't hold much weight afterall. |
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| Quote ="tvoc"The stats you used for 2013 and 2012 were not drawn from the same data set of games from those seasons - or do you disagree?
Both were incomplete in terms of Leeds 1st grade games (as Opta always are) but in this specific instance 2012 was even more incomplete than 2013 - or do you disagree?
__________
Now when can we expect to see your corrected figures?
For someone who once pleaded:
you seem oddly reluctant to provide them despite now offering to do so.
You can't just play the man forever, at some point you're gonna have to play the ball or accept people will likely assume you either can't provide the stats you've promised or that they didn't hold much weight afterall.'"
Seemed a pretty reasonable question, how were the 2013 stats incomplete.
Once again you've danced around and avoided giving an answer to what seems quite a simple question.
As for the last paragraph, it rings very true for yourself. I'm not reluctant, I've offered to post them (and an apology) once you've answered somethings. So why ask "when are you going to get them" when I've already said? Mere avoidance on your part.
When asked why I was being provocative I answered honestly, to the same question you offered no answer (likewise for other questions). I've admitted knowing the fault since last Wednesday, I didn't have to that. I've been very honest during this thread, you on the other hand haven't.
That you made no mention of your "carries per game" result that I highlighted is.......duly noted.
You've avoided any single question that has come your way, and no glossing over my questions will have stopped people noticing that. |
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Why dont we agree to disagree and get back to a true debate.
Q. Is the Leeds pack (as in available forwards) really ageing ??
Q. and "have" we under achieved. ??
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"Why dont we agree to disagree and get back to a true debate.
Q. Is the Leeds pack (as in available forwards) really ageing ??
Q. and "have" we under achieved. ??'"
We were debating the Leeds pack back on page 3 & 4, where Printer tried unsuccessfully to try and argue that Peacock is not as important as we were saying. He further tried to make out, with incorrect misinterpreted stats, that Peacocks team mates in the pack are not a concern. As we now know, those stats were not correct, but he is reluctant to correct them, due to it proving the point that he was incorrect.
How any one could possibly try to argue that 2013 was anything other than under achievement, would make this place more looney than normal. So I doubt your second question would get much response. |
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| well I will start then.... 
1. Of the current squad available starting position forwards this season ages range from 36 to 21 and over the 11 players the average is 27 by my caculations.
I would suspect this is fairly typical of other squads and is a fair balance of youth and experience.
2. The under achieving question is more difficult in IMHO and more subjective an issue. In real terms is all relative and compared to our previous recent successes it could be argued as so. |
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Quote ="ThePrinter"Seemed a pretty reasonable question, how were the 2013 stats incomplete.
Once again you've danced around and avoided giving an answer to what seems quite a simple question.'"
Someone who previously claimed that -
Quote ="ThePrinter"I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account a massive factor of amount of games played.'"
were that true that person would not need to ask. Someone who genuinely took that massive factor into account would already know which games are in the figures and which games are not.
Quote ="ThePinter"I'm not reluctant, I've offered to post them (and an apology) once you've answered somethings. So why ask "when are you going to get them" when I've already said? Mere avoidance on your part.'"
You're not reluctant to post the corrected stats (having realised your error) but as yet you've failed to do so. You really shouldn't need me to explain anymore than I already have especially as its an error you've also identified.
Quote ="ThePrinter"I've admitted knowing the fault since last Wednesday, I didn't have to that. '"
So with the fault now seemingly identified let's see the corrected stats. They were and still are your choice of stats - just post the corrected ones.
Quote ="ThePrinter"Mere avoidance on your part.'"
Your stats remember.
You got them wrong or so you claim so let's see the corrected ones. It's really that simple.
Just in case anyone has forgotten the detail - what with all the irrelevant sideshow here are the posts that need immediate attention -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=32
and here -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=34 |
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Quote ="ThePrinter"Seemed a pretty reasonable question, how were the 2013 stats incomplete.
Once again you've danced around and avoided giving an answer to what seems quite a simple question.'"
Someone who previously claimed that -
Quote ="ThePrinter"I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account a massive factor of amount of games played.'"
were that true that person would not need to ask. Someone who genuinely took that massive factor into account would already know which games are in the figures and which games are not.
Quote ="ThePinter"I'm not reluctant, I've offered to post them (and an apology) once you've answered somethings. So why ask "when are you going to get them" when I've already said? Mere avoidance on your part.'"
You're not reluctant to post the corrected stats (having realised your error) but as yet you've failed to do so. You really shouldn't need me to explain anymore than I already have especially as its an error you've also identified.
Quote ="ThePrinter"I've admitted knowing the fault since last Wednesday, I didn't have to that. '"
So with the fault now seemingly identified let's see the corrected stats. They were and still are your choice of stats - just post the corrected ones.
Quote ="ThePrinter"Mere avoidance on your part.'"
Your stats remember.
You got them wrong or so you claim so let's see the corrected ones. It's really that simple.
Just in case anyone has forgotten the detail - what with all the irrelevant sideshow here are the posts that need immediate attention -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=32
and here -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=34 | |
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| Anybody still in any doubt that tvoc is backtracking and avoiding simple questions.
You said if anything you claimed were wrong you'd leave the board.
So how were the 2013 stats incomplete like you claimed? What games are missing?
You were wrong to claim that, thus "I'll leave the board if I'm wrong" comes into play |
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If people want to re-visit page 5 - what I said and why I said it will still be there for all to see.
_______
Nothing I said back then will alter that these remain =#FF0000your stats and contain (by your own admission) mis-leading comparisons due to your involvement -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=32
and here -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=34
Quote ="ThePrinter"I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account =#FF0000a massive factor of amount of games played.'"
I agree that would be a significant variable that you would need to take into account for comparison purposes. Unfortunately it's not one you always pay enough attention to as witnessed here when you posted -
Quote ="ThePrinter"We made more metres last year than we have since 2005'"
But not the case when you make the like for like comparison. It's noticeable how many of the more recent years figures are remarkably close - at least according to the Opta figures - but then dramatically jump up in total in 2013 ...... it's almost as if the data-set changed last year - making like for like comparisons difficult to achieve without making the necessary adjustments. But I'm sure I don't need to keep pointing this out, afterall you recognised the massive part this would play.
Quote ="ThePrinter"but check the stats I've posted. '"
You've since had to acknowledge that you mangled them - not me nor anyone else just you.
Quote ="ThePrinter"yep I got some numbers wrong.'"
Quote ="ThePrinter"Despite yourself claiming I'd "rubbished" tvoc's statement (please show where btw) I never not once didn't ACCEPT he was correct. '"
So you've accepted I was correct to call you out over them and -
Quote ="ThePrinter"I've not had any problem that he found a problem with my stats. If someone spots a flaw with them by all means do tell so we don't get incorrect results '"
I couldn't agree more that it's important for stats to be accurately reported for them to be of any significance so I was not surprised to hear that -
Quote ="ThePrinter"Sure you can have an apology and a list of corrected stats'"
but oddly they have still to appear. Why is that? And the answer doesn't involve any input required from me first - that's a red-herring, a nonsense given they are your stats and you've recognised the flaw you introduced. Not sure if you've let everyone else in to the closely guarded secret yet - perhaps you have and I missed it.
The onus remains on you to come up with the corrected figures and continually failing to do so appears 'strange/questionable' given how long you have had since being made aware of the problem =#FF0000you introduced. |
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If people want to re-visit page 5 - what I said and why I said it will still be there for all to see.
_______
Nothing I said back then will alter that these remain =#FF0000your stats and contain (by your own admission) mis-leading comparisons due to your involvement -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=32
and here -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=34
Quote ="ThePrinter"I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account =#FF0000a massive factor of amount of games played.'"
I agree that would be a significant variable that you would need to take into account for comparison purposes. Unfortunately it's not one you always pay enough attention to as witnessed here when you posted -
Quote ="ThePrinter"We made more metres last year than we have since 2005'"
But not the case when you make the like for like comparison. It's noticeable how many of the more recent years figures are remarkably close - at least according to the Opta figures - but then dramatically jump up in total in 2013 ...... it's almost as if the data-set changed last year - making like for like comparisons difficult to achieve without making the necessary adjustments. But I'm sure I don't need to keep pointing this out, afterall you recognised the massive part this would play.
Quote ="ThePrinter"but check the stats I've posted. '"
You've since had to acknowledge that you mangled them - not me nor anyone else just you.
Quote ="ThePrinter"yep I got some numbers wrong.'"
Quote ="ThePrinter"Despite yourself claiming I'd "rubbished" tvoc's statement (please show where btw) I never not once didn't ACCEPT he was correct. '"
So you've accepted I was correct to call you out over them and -
Quote ="ThePrinter"I've not had any problem that he found a problem with my stats. If someone spots a flaw with them by all means do tell so we don't get incorrect results '"
I couldn't agree more that it's important for stats to be accurately reported for them to be of any significance so I was not surprised to hear that -
Quote ="ThePrinter"Sure you can have an apology and a list of corrected stats'"
but oddly they have still to appear. Why is that? And the answer doesn't involve any input required from me first - that's a red-herring, a nonsense given they are your stats and you've recognised the flaw you introduced. Not sure if you've let everyone else in to the closely guarded secret yet - perhaps you have and I missed it.
The onus remains on you to come up with the corrected figures and continually failing to do so appears 'strange/questionable' given how long you have had since being made aware of the problem =#FF0000you introduced. | |
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tvoc - Can I ask a simple question, as somebody who clearly doesn't check the stats in detail (with casual interest, if at all), to save me looking, since you clearly have the answer at your fingertips?
How are the 2012 stats more incomplete than the 2013 stats? What is/isn't included in the 2 datasets that makes them incomparable?
Not that I wouldn't always take such stats without a large pinch of salt, and not that I see their value in the context this little debate started, but I am much more curious about the statistical inconsistency than I am about what people are trying to infer from the numbers. I don't think I'm alone.
If I'm being dim, please humour me.
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So in conclusion, whilst I made a mistake, so did tvoc with some of what he said.
However I didn't say I'd leave like tvoc would if he made errors.
It's clear he isn't a "man of his word."
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If people want to re-visit page 5 - what I said and why I said it will still be there for all to see.
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Nothing I said back then will alter that these remain =#FF0000your stats and contain (by your own admission) mis-leading comparisons due to your involvement -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=32
and here -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=34
Quote ="ThePrinter"I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account =#FF0000a massive factor of amount of games played.'"
I agree that would be a significant variable that you would need to take into account for comparison purposes. Unfortunately it's not one you always pay enough attention to as witnessed here when you posted -
Quote ="ThePrinter"We made more metres last year than we have since 2005'"
But not the case when you make the like for like comparison. It's noticeable how many of the more recent year's figures are remarkably close - at least they are according to Opta - but then dramatically jump up in total in 2013 ...... it's almost as if the data-set changed last year - making like for like comparisons difficult to achieve without making the necessary adjustments. But I'm sure I don't need to keep pointing this out, afterall you recognised the massive part this would play.
Quote ="ThePrinter"but check the stats I've posted. '"
You've since had to acknowledge that you mangled them - not me nor anyone else just you.
Quote ="ThePrinter"yep I got some numbers wrong.'"
Quote ="ThePrinter"Despite yourself claiming I'd "rubbished" tvoc's statement (please show where btw) I never not once didn't ACCEPT he was correct. '"
So you've accepted I was correct to call you out over them and -
Quote ="ThePrinter"I've not had any problem that he found a problem with my stats. If someone spots a flaw with them by all means do tell so we don't get incorrect results '"
I couldn't agree more that it's important for stats to be accurately reported for them to be of any significance so I was not surprised to hear that -
Quote ="ThePrinter"Sure you can have an apology and a list of corrected stats'"
but oddly they have still to appear. Why is that? And the answer doesn't involve any input required from me first - that's a red-herring, a nonsense given they are your stats and you've recognised the flaw you introduced. Not sure if you've let everyone else in to the closely guarded secret yet - perhaps you have and I missed it.
The onus remains on you to come up with the corrected figures and continually failing to do so appears 'strange/questionable' given how long you have had since being made aware of the problem =#FF0000you introduced. |
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If people want to re-visit page 5 - what I said and why I said it will still be there for all to see.
_______
Nothing I said back then will alter that these remain =#FF0000your stats and contain (by your own admission) mis-leading comparisons due to your involvement -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=32
and here -
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=563946&tsmp=1392209273&start=34
Quote ="ThePrinter"I do look at stats in detail, here's some taking into account =#FF0000a massive factor of amount of games played.'"
I agree that would be a significant variable that you would need to take into account for comparison purposes. Unfortunately it's not one you always pay enough attention to as witnessed here when you posted -
Quote ="ThePrinter"We made more metres last year than we have since 2005'"
But not the case when you make the like for like comparison. It's noticeable how many of the more recent year's figures are remarkably close - at least they are according to Opta - but then dramatically jump up in total in 2013 ...... it's almost as if the data-set changed last year - making like for like comparisons difficult to achieve without making the necessary adjustments. But I'm sure I don't need to keep pointing this out, afterall you recognised the massive part this would play.
Quote ="ThePrinter"but check the stats I've posted. '"
You've since had to acknowledge that you mangled them - not me nor anyone else just you.
Quote ="ThePrinter"yep I got some numbers wrong.'"
Quote ="ThePrinter"Despite yourself claiming I'd "rubbished" tvoc's statement (please show where btw) I never not once didn't ACCEPT he was correct. '"
So you've accepted I was correct to call you out over them and -
Quote ="ThePrinter"I've not had any problem that he found a problem with my stats. If someone spots a flaw with them by all means do tell so we don't get incorrect results '"
I couldn't agree more that it's important for stats to be accurately reported for them to be of any significance so I was not surprised to hear that -
Quote ="ThePrinter"Sure you can have an apology and a list of corrected stats'"
but oddly they have still to appear. Why is that? And the answer doesn't involve any input required from me first - that's a red-herring, a nonsense given they are your stats and you've recognised the flaw you introduced. Not sure if you've let everyone else in to the closely guarded secret yet - perhaps you have and I missed it.
The onus remains on you to come up with the corrected figures and continually failing to do so appears 'strange/questionable' given how long you have had since being made aware of the problem =#FF0000you introduced. | |
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You know what I think everyone needs? Apart from cake?
Some actual rugby, played on grass, with real players. Then we can all argue about that. Instead of the last few months of recycling last season's post-mortem.
Roll on Sunday evening when we can get down to the serious business of reading too much into a single match.
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| Player Coach | 19234 | No
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| Quote ="DoubleAone"well I will start then....
1. Of the current squad available starting position forwards this season ages range from 36 to 21 and over the 11 players the average is 27 by my caculations.
I would suspect this is fairly typical of other squads and is a fair balance of youth and experience.
2. The under achieving question is more difficult in IMHO and more subjective an issue. In real terms is all relative and compared to our previous recent successes it could be argued as so.'"
To be fair mate numbers and age are secondry to the actual quality imo.
As i've posted before DA imo the Transition within the pack should have started last year and should we lose JP for a sustained length of time i think it could prove to be a gamble that back-fires.
It's not just age that is the concern either its the quality i don't think Kylie is as effective or explosive as he used to be but could still have a possible role on a rotational basis but we know he will be 1st choice with JP.
Bailey had 2 decent games last year in between injuries and suspension whilst also playing at 13 but i hope he's used back at Prop and prove effective.
Kirke imo isn't consistent or good enough to be 1st choice 17 again imo ,Jjb and Delaney are both seriously over-played when battered again something that should'nt have happened with the former injured already.
It should be a big year for Singleton and Achurch to establish themselves as 1st choice regulars whilst also injury permitting a chance for Ward to get plenty of games hopefully at 13.
I'm not expecting much from Yates given his unlucky start to his career with us and i think it could be make or break for Clarkson.
I'd like to see Ablett play the full season(again injury permitting) as the left side BR we saw some good glimpses of potential at the start of last year when he linked with Moon and Hall.
As for under-achievement we suffered a lot of injuries but at the same time a lot of our established regulars played below their best at various times more regularly than seasons past.
I've no doubt our best 17 on form can compete and beat every team in this league and even if we suffer 2/3 injuries there are options i just think we could and should have recruited a 1st choice Prop and another BR. |
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Tvoc made incorrect claims, thus needs to leave the board according to his promise.
He won't though because he's a liar.
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| Quote ="El Diablo"tvoc - Can I ask a simple question.'"
No, because he's f**ked up and is avoiding the consequences of what he'd claimed he'd do. |
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| International Chairman | 18063 | No
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| Quote ="ThePrinter"Tvoc made incorrect claims, thus needs to leave the board according to his promise.
He won't though because he's a liar.'"
Grow up |
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