The evidence to back my and others criticism is there in the shape of performances ,selection and the same old "lets hope for someone to do something special" approach.
I don't boo or heckle the coach or the team but i will call it how i see it and there's no to a "certain extent" about it.
Also "whining and moaning" is far from what we are doing on here most have come and pointed out how we've been so poor and why the same mistakes from the same players are been made week in week out.
IF we were all moaning and whining there'd be a woe is us tone and NO-ONE is saying we should be winning every game so again however you see it doesn't make others wrong for airing their views especailly when they are paying out their hard earned every week for the same old dross ,sound bites and cliche's.
Peacock is knackered as is Kylie and giving them both around an hour hasn't worked especially in the big games against the faster and mainly younger forwards that's a fact that we've all witnessed.
Sinfield is getting destroyed defending out wide again that's not an opinion it's fact everyone else has seen.
Lunt is not a BR again it's a fact.
You continue your defence for a failing coach and an out of form disjointed team living in the past good on you but whilst i'm paying to watch it i'll continue to raise my views and concerns about the direction where we are heading.
Finally HOW i support the team is my choice and certainly doesn't make my points less valid because you've got more excuses than Vicky Pollard to roll out.

You don't really need to defend yourself. I was one of the very few who backed the coach last season, mainly because I felt the players were at an end then. I now look back and can honestly say IMO it was a fluke, and players dug deep to prove a wrong with everything they had left inside them.

The two posters you are arguing with can have what ever opinion they like, but quite frankly they are talking out of their bottom. The only proof of that will come if we continue the way we are, which is what they are proposing we do. For any club that seeks success and a desire to be challengers it is posters like that, that hopefully the club will ignore.

Firstly disloyal is total bollox i've followed this great club through much much worse and will do so again.
Calling each game and performance on it's merits IS NOT DISLOYAL neither is pointing out BLATANT FLAWS in the selection and performances.
Also when changes have been suggested it's the very point of rotation and resting whilst also showing been up to scratch on a CONSISTENT basis isn't really good enough especially when you have a 30 man squad with 2 injuries.
My support is unquestioned i attend the games etc etc does that mean i shouldn't say anything if it's negative???
What's the "GREAT PLAN" then JC??
Tell us how long before we are allowed to criticise ,question and offer differing approaches??
I like how you dress it up as the 1st sign of a loss or poor effort we are all out burning dummies and starting protest marches what a load of bollox we've been poor for months.
Yet again same old selection ,same old positions same old mistakes and same old defeats so come on JC you and yer mate tell us How we should support them ,what views we can and can't have and more importantly HOW with changing absolutely NOTHING the coach and team turn it around???
Just whilst yer doing that can you drop a line to the CEO and get on his case for been critical of performances aswell!!

All on the nose. Spot on IMO.

In JP's first carry against wakie he knocked on from a standard Burrow pass. JP laughed. I didn't find it in the slightest bit funny.

2 more years of JP and another benefit year for Kylie leaves me feeling a little empty inside.

As for Sinfield he has to be shifted back into the middle. He was a decent defender there, it worked like clockwork. Would never miss many. Out wide he'd make the tackle if he could get there but he's getting killed left, right and centre for pace.

Lunt is not a BR in the same was as Bails is not a loose. Get the right people in where they are most effective and the whole team benefits.

It's a good point about the ages of these players but I don't see advancing age as a reason to play them out of position.
Maybe that's not what you meant, it just reads that way?



Burrow is half a hooker.
He's OK (and only OK) with ball in hand and even then, apart from the scoot from the ruck, he plays it like a scrum half which is hardly surprising.
Defensively you need a more robust, bigger, haul-'em-down-all-day type (like Diskin was).
Personally, I think a mistake was made during Buderus' tenure in letting Matt Diskin go.
When Buderus was good he was very good, of that there is no doubt, but there were far too many first halves where he put in one good move in the whole 40 mins and then when Diskin came on the whole team lit up.

Sure, we've seen Sinfield at 6 before, far too often IMHO, just because he can make a fist of it when someone is injured doesn't make him a first-choice stand-off.
Sure, he can place the grubber or chip but he can do that from LF too.
Plus, at SO, he moves out to the centres in defence ... but we need him tackling in the middle.

McGuire can play scrum half, with that I agree ... but with him on one side of a specialist hooker and Burrow on the other we had a damn sight more attacking options.

To add to the list above.

Ablett is a second rower playing centre.
Bailey is a prop playing loose.
Hardaker... TBF we don't really know what his natural position is but it sure as Hell isn't a centre.
Lunt coming off the bench to pay at loose.

Oh... and Kirke playing anywhere.

Peacock and Burrow did the self same party trick at Warrington in the last game on two minutes, of course we were already six behind by that stage and twelve behind a couple of minutes later and already on the bus back home.

Just sometimes you've got to see the funny side otherwise you might cry instead. 'We're s[ihi[/it and we we know we are' type of thing.

I personally think that whats wrong with Leeds is a load of little things. Some are bigger than others. Nothing massive, but lots of them. From my view (which is limited like most on here) the coach is responsible for many of them, the CEO a few of them, and the players a few of them.
I don't think we should win every game, or even win something every season. I just would like to see us make the best (or close) of our lot. We are some way from that IMO

The coach is crap, the old players ( and Kirke ) are crap and the pink strip is crap and the south stand is crap....

Just saying

It probably was a wry s, but I didn't care for it.

If the team are playing to a very poor style, with poor completions, little to no structure and consistency with or without the ball, over a number of months, and there is precious little rotation of playing staff, who is responsible for this situation? For me there is only one answer.

If this was a temporary situation, if we showed any consistent level of improvement, or if the poorly performing players were dropped and replaced with others, then you could make a case to support the coaching team. There is absolutely no case to support them in the current position considering the duration that this situation has been in existence.

The players are not entirely blameless, nor is the CEO as he has taken the decisions on contract extensions and signings, but ultimately when it comes to performances on the field over a prolonged period, there is only one place to look.

BM clearly doesn't want the performances we've been putting out, as unlike Sinfield and co he can't point back to a Bennett-esque era from 2004 and be secure in his position regardless of one or two bad years. So the buck will initially stop with him, and it should because he hasn't been able to get decent performances out of the team on a regular basis.

However, any new coach worth his salt would then also look to start with a clean slate, with many existing players (including 'legends') having to prove their worth. GH - well aware of the impact on season tickets - will not be at all happy with a team that for whatever reason decides to try only when they think its important - WCC, CC and play-offs.

From the YEP: It was only Rhinos’ second win in six league matches, but Sinfield said: “There’s loads of time and still a lot of games to play."

Methinks old Kev has let slip the players' real attitude right there.

Its true though.

True but probably helps explain some of the shambolic performances of late.

Sinfield is right in saying there is a lot of games to be played. He will also be realising we have a lot of easy games to play.

There doesn't hide the poor performances, or the reality that when it comes to the play offs against an half decent side we will be out.

Wakefield should have been an 'easy' game on Monday, but it was far from it.

The way we are playing at the moment no game is going to be easy.

Easy, as in only one winner. Performances are another issue altogether.

On any given day in SL every team is beatable if they don't prepare well. The reigning Champions are far from exempt in that regard, indeed they appear more than capable of shipping a lot of points at present V all-comers and that makes them vulnerable in every game.

The 1st target V Castleford should be to switch on from the warm-up and keep them to two scores or less. Do that and you're well on the way to an 'easy' win.

Personally, I'm pinning all my hopes for this season, on us peaking at the back end coupled with other teams taking us lightly. This team can still beat the likes of Warrington & Wigan. However, in the league the 2 points is worth the same as the 2 points on offer against Widnes or London. In reality, we could have trained with intensity & subsequently played well in those games, yet still lost. a 50 point win / loss is virtually the same as a 1 point win / loss. I'm sure this team will start to hit form again, and it will hopefully coincide with the season's back end. That has been the case for the last 4 years, I don't see why it wouldn't be the case again. Whether the squad has it in them to win it from low down again I'm not so sure, but I do think its our best shot at winning it with our squad.

Indeed.
McD served under Tony Smith, whose motto was always to keep improving performance and the wins would come.

He was right ... but I haven't seen evidence of that at Leeds for quite some time.

It could have been. Those 2 long range scores came about as field freak breaks. Before going 12 up we had jack position and were stumbling around. It would have nice to see them step it up and run all over them. But we didn't. A sloppy high tackle and a JP knock-on gifted away the position. Our line defence was awful and we got dragged into a ing-contest. If the game would have carried on another 40 minutes I have no doubt another 8 comedy trys would have been shared between the 2 teams.

Rhinoms – Again, I have laid out a detailed argument which discusses the performances and selections, and you have not been able to give me any specifics regarding what you don’t like. I agree, the performances have not left us much to be inspired by of late, but AGAIN, we have had some good performances this season which I find it difficult to altogether forget or dismiss as luck. I’m pleased to hear you don’t boo or heckle, but there is definitely a limit to the sort of behaviour that is acceptable – if a customer or client of mine decided to publicly abuse me on the basis of an hour and a half’s work out of the whole week (the rest of which they didn’t even see), which was represented by the actions of others, they would promptly be told where to go, instead of being tolerated as by both the Club and Mac. I imagine that yourself and many others would behave in a similar way to me.

I have never said that others are wrong for airing their views, and in fact I have repeated myself again and again in this thread to say that of course, everyone has a right to.

I agree, Peacock is tired, but I think Kylie has been brilliant. If Sinfield is defending out wide that is either because he has been asked to play there by Mac, or because that is where he has decided to position himself. If he too is tired, perhaps the logic is that out wide there should be less defending to do. In addition to this, a player of Sinfield’s calibre is always going to be targeted because of his importance to the team, so perhaps the players around him should also be accountable for his “getting destroyed”. Shaun Lunt is a new player to us and if the management see fit to see how he gets on in a different position to ensure he is fully utilised, I have no problem in testing this out (for example, moving Delaney into the second row was a very astute decision by Mac, as I have already pointed out).

I don’t think that any of my arguments indicate that I am “living in the past” – perhaps you should go back and read my original post. How you choose to support the team is indeed your choice (as I have repeated again and again in this post!!), but my definition of support is quite different, and I have as much right to that as you. I’m not making any excuses, I’m looking for reasons – reasons allow for feedback and change, excuses do not.

Also, when you say we’ve been poor for months, I think you must mean two months – in the run up to March, we had poor games against Wigan away, Cas away (first half), Saints away, Huddersfield at home, and Bradford away but good games against Hull KR at home, Manly, Widnes away, Cas away (second half), Warrington at home, Salford away, London at home and Catalans at home. Incidentally, Warrington and Catalans are in the top three, showing how competitive we can be.

While I started this thread as a defence of Brian McDermott and asked people not to boo and heckle, not once have I told people how to support the Club or that their view is wrong (please see my MANY statements on people’s right to their own view) – in my opinion, some of us have had a really good debate on here. If you don’t like my or Juan’s view, that’s absolutely fine – frankly, all you’ve done is get heated because you don’t agree and ask questions of us instead of offering some really substantial arguments like myself and some of the other posters.

Gotcha – have you read my original post? If you’re going to tell me which end I’m talking out of, perhaps you could construct a counter-argument? Frankly I hope the Club ignores all of us – they’ve won 5 Grand Finals in 8 years without any input from the likes of me or you!

Fat Boy – Ablett is a second rower, but Mac isn’t the first coach to play him in the centre. He is, however, the first coach to make him really successful there – after playing last season in both positions, he finally made the England squad, and of course got a debut last week. Centre for Ablett is an alternative position so I wouldn’t say he’s being played out of position. I don’t have a problem with Bailey at loose – it gives us a big pack and a bit more aggression, which we need against the top sides. I think we’ve already discussed Hardaker! But he did well at centre last year and the start of this, and he seems to be doing well at fullback too. I talk about Lunt a bit higher up – he’s new to us and it’s probably worth testing him out a little bit in other positions to see what he can really offer.

Batleyrhino – I think my entire original post is a fair case for the defence of the coach.

BrisbaneRhino – I’d be really disappointed if we thought that Kevin Sinfield’s comment in the YEP was a reflection of their attitude (see my earlier posts on desperation v poor attitude). I suspect that this is an attempt to keep any optimism outside the Club alive. Plus, what else can he say? And it is true – we’re two points off fourth with ten more games to play.

The Eagle – good point well made, and in fact we’ve already beaten Warrington this season.

The lacklustre PERFORMANCES are where the substance in my opinion comes from what games are you watching?
The games against Manly ,Wire and Catalan show exactly WHERE we should be in terms of effort,structure and desire wise yet we aren't.
JP been Knackered hasn't just crept up on us ,neither has Sinfield getting battered out wide.
How many times have we been walked through defensively and how many times should a team be poor before some changes in selection are warranted.
Read what others have posted i'd say there's more that are concerned than just saying "we were good against Manly" so we shouldn't criticise!!
This team could and should be playing much better there are players clearly out of form and some who are desperately in need of a rest yet nothing changes i suppose you applaud the coach for picking every international player v Wakey i call it desperate and one we've yet to get away with plus watching us show the resiliance of the Greek financial sector wasn't my idea of building confidence in a struggling team.
The answers are straight forward the defence NEEDS restructering becasue as is it's not working and we can't ignore it because it was ok a few months ago.
The selection of certain players also needs sorting some are knackered and some out of form what's the point of having Moore ,Griffin ,Bailey ,JP ,Kylie and then adding Singleton and D.Smith to the squad list and only flogging 2 and using one as a 13??
Young Clarkson has been getting dominated ,prior to his injury Webb was a liabillity for every couple of good passes.
We have a 30 man squad of that squad we have players that are bang in form full of confidence and desperate for a chance to play for the 1st team so why shouldn't they get a game when the tired and tested are on such a poor run of form?
As for the rest of yer posts i get heated when someone questions my loyalty and trys and tells me how i should support this club especially when all they've done is IGNORE every other post that has pointed out the same things i have.
The substance is there every week on the pitch and NONE are beyond critisism or comment because tey've won games and trophys in the past even the players are admitting how cr## they've been so aren't they allowed to say so?
I've no doubts there's work going in on the training ground but come gametime as yet that work hasn't taken effect nor has it changed where we are consistently weak and poor.
Finally we loan out a young 9 and SIGN a 9 on loan who has 99% of his life played at 9 why f##k about trying to make him something he clearly isn't??
I'll be there sunday and i'll be there for the 9's the u18's and u20's and that will continue irrespective of performance or results but it won't stop me from saying when it's been poor either and IF you re-read this thread carefully you'll see i'm not the only one who has this opinion but i guess we are all wrong for saying as such!!