I was expecting a cashmere/o'hara prop it hasn't quite worked out that way, so far.

Aye.

I saw him hit hard, run hard and set the platform. That's what i saw.

I haven't seen the stats yet but if they say he averaged 0.32 metres per carry fewer than Kirke or anyone else it won't alter what I saw.

Cross has a better pedigree than Mr Bailey. As far as I can see he wasn't signed as a top prop and with the exception of JP we don't have a top prop.


How many has Bailey scored? How many should he have scored?




Bailey has made a good start to his season and has improved his poor go forward game. But this is only after 5 games. Lets see if he can keep it up before we put the flags out. I don't go along with your latest spin that Bailey is marshalling the defence. Thats really funny. He is just a tackler not a thinker BB. He certainly marshalled a big hole in the defence for Hull KR to stroll through the other day.

Cross is doing as good as other prop with the exception of Burgess.

Edited

I think that says it all

So what are you talking about then_

Why? We knew Cross's pedigree before he came.

I agree there were some encouraging signs on Monday of a better performance with better go forward. My comments based on the season as a whole.

And yet none of what you put in your reply is on the contrary to what I put in the post you are replying to.

Produce as many averages (over as many seasons) as you care, it won't change the fact Leuluai is out there to make an impact in the opening 15 to 20 minutes of games and earns his place because that is what he still does better than the other choices available.

But on fewer occasions this year and with less impact.

Even if with less impact (and that's arguable) it's still with more impact (IMO) than the other choices available and that's why he's in the side. Until Leeds find another prop to fill that specific role I don't see him losing his place to Bailey, Burgess or Kirke.

Cross is the only other prop Leeds have available that could 'potentially' offer that style of aggression. Perhaps later in the season when he's had chance to integrate and get up to speed we'll see him putting pressure on Leuluai.

I don't usually say stuff like this, but after 8 pages of debate I have to cut to the cheese. They are both $h1t. WTF were we thinking?

I hold hope for Hauraki. What is he, 24/25? He's exciting with ball in hand, he just needs a lot of work on his D to get anywhere near the team.

The problem is we have them both for a couple of years unless Widnes are desperate. Oddly enough I don't think Hauraki was that bad a signing, even if he doesn't make it. He did well last year and probably seemed like a gamble worth taking. Cross was never going to do much more than be solid, and shouldn't have been signed. The classic overseas player blocking a youngster's progress.

Bang on.

How would you know? The stats can't support or deny that claim?

He does marshall then defence that is exactly what he does in the middle of the field. You can see this from the terraces, watching him in the defensive line, maybe not from the view point of the cameras every 3 weeks when Leeds are on Sky.

He is always communicating with his troops, pointing and showing people where to fill in, and usually knows where to fill in himself. The little skills of knowing where to slot in, and where to involve yourself is an area he knows how to do very well. If you saw his 25 minute cameo last week, you would agree with everything I have just said. Or you may not, just to be difficult and keep your weak agenda alive.

I'm asking for your judgement on an incident in the game and what effect that had. Yet you can't come up with anything.

Without using stats, or a list of them, just tell me what you think that incident's effect was in the picture of the game?

When you're ready.....

I fully agree with you that Kylie had a great first set and IMO his best of the season with an outstanding 15 carries of note. I hope that this improvement in his form will continue. But what you actually saw was him average 1.27m per carry less than Kirke. This in no way diminishes his performance as his work rate was higher but it was his highlight so far this year allbeit against weaker opposition.

Leuluai: 107 - 15 (7.13) - 15 - 2 (88%) - 0 – 0
Bailey: 44 - 6 (7.33) - 16 - 0 (100%) - 0 – 0
Kirke: 84 - 10 (8.40) - 9 - 1 (90%) - 0 – 0
Burgess: 89 - 12 (7.42) - 18 - 1 (95%) - 1 –

I'd agree he looks better with the ball than without it, but is it my imagination or does he do an impression of an upturned tortoise every time he is tackled? He nearly always gets turtled on his back and then takes half an hour to right himself. Knees and elbows, knees and f*****g elbows!

The figures I produced were contrary to your comment "He has never been noted as a big metre maker (although that has improved in Peacock's absence)"

His average metres per carry have not improved but in fact have deteriorated in every year since 2007 (8.84 m/carry) and this year have dropped below 7m for the first time (6.72 m/carry including his good last match)

As most of his other stats have similarly deteriorated year on year it is reasonable to make the valid point that he, like several others in the squad, has
passed his peak.

You make the fair comment of the value of his impact in the first 15/20minutes which he showed last Monday. However this was the best set he has played all season and not before time. I seem to recall he made his best impact for Leeds was when he came on from the bench in the early days.

My comments were not intended to have a go at Leuluai but to point out that Cross has at least the equal stats of our other props and when game time is taken into account he has the best work rate of all of them.

As usual you choose to miss the point. The thread is about Cross & Hauraki. I was comparing the workrate and performance of our props this season to shown that Cross is underated by many of the short sighted who have written him off like your good self.

With regard to the Bailey redcard and the Cross 2 point penalty, I have already given you my opinions.

Made me chuckle that. Cross does look a plodder but hopefully as he gains match fitness he will become at least a solid plodder who will put in some decent stints. Hauraki I thought would be a very astute buy, he scored a load of tries last season. However he does not appear to respect possession enough (similar to Watkins) and seemingly cannot tackle (very strange for someone who is not scared of the collisions).

Is that what they were?

Especially for the Bailey red you stated these 'opinions' as facts from a list, but haven't really given me an opinion, and that is what I would like. For you to show some rugby acumen (added value) and talk in rugby terms. Not stats, just what you saw and how you judged it on the night and the impact that had on the game. That you haven't answered yet. I'm still waiting....

There is a difference between metres per game and metres per drive. My reference was to the former measure rather than the latter.



Most of us are past our peak (at least those of us past our early twenties) but that doesn't neccessarily equate to being ready for the knacker's yard just yet. In Leuluai's case it only becomes a relevant issue when someone does what he does better than he currently does it. That player is yet to emerge or sign for Leeds, IMO. I make the same argument with Senior btw.



Why not before time? He ended last season very well (hence the Peacock reference) and started this season in a similar vein, unfortunately he picked up a pectoral muscle injury (missing three matches) and has since his return played in 5 of the 6 rounds, increasing his metres per game week by week.




Most can make a flashy impact in that scenario but the real deal props tend to make the starting side. Regardless of whether it was coach Smith (7 of the last 9), coach McClennan (87 from 92) or coach McDermott (8 from 8 ) they combined (102 from the last 109) appear to agree his talents are best utilised in the run-on side.



So you (and perhaps others) would select Cross ahead of Leuluai while I (and perhaps others) would do the reverse. Meanwhile the Leeds coach will select the actual team.

For your information I have been a keen student of the game for many years and hold a coaching certificate. I have had a season ticket for almost 50 years and have followed the team live home and away for many many years. I only miss games when I am out of the country but I do value both the Sky recordings and stats which often back up the live judgements but sometimes show the live judgement can be wrong.

I have seen the majority of Baileys career and so feel qualified to make a judgment which is based on much more than a 25 minute cameo. Bailey has been a useful bench man for Leeds based on a reliable tackle count but little more. Unlike you I do not regard niggle and cheap shots as rugby skills.

He does not possess an offload game, he was too slow for a 2nd row and he is too easly tackle for a prop. He does not run good lines of attack, he does not back up well, he does not do the kick chase, you wouldn't give him the ball 2 metres from the line and expect him to score a try.

That said he has made a good start to this season and I applaud his go forward improvement which has been his big weakness. Lets hope he can keep this up.

How dare you diss Kirke...sorry Bailey.