Losing is a disease.

Sometimes the cure is someone to come in from outside and reboot the whole team. If we take BM and any number of players at their word, spirit is good and everyone continues to work very hard in training to put things right.

That doesn't match the performances Leeds are putting out, which look more and more like a team who's collective collapse in confidence and belief is almost complete, to the point that some of our most experienced players are failing to perform the most basic tasks either individually or collectively.

Cas' first try for me was a prime example of this. PTB nearly central and yet Leeds are very low on numbers on the right side defence. As a result they're spread too far apart, Cas move the ball left and the line (which wasn't straight or moving up as a unit) staggers, inviting Cas to take a one man tackle and offload for the try. Cas didn't do anything special at all, just played what they saw which was an amateur standard defence. Last year we would have seen players pushing from the inside helping make up numbers, and the line as a whole moving as a unit to defend.

How long do you honestly believe that the ticket buying masses will tolerate the BS that is being spun by the club?

We're constantly being told that there's a positive vibe in the camp and that it's just a matter of time before the boys 'click' and the results start coming. I read press releases, twitter and Facebook posts, emails for the CEO telling that all is good in da hood and things will get well soon.... honest!!!

Man up Gary and let us know what's really rotten in the State of Denmark. Something is fundamentally wrong.

Maybe BMcD has lost the dressing room or there is internal unrest over pay and all the players are proving a point - something is a miss and simply telling us that "is really not that bad" is just adding insult to injury.

If Leeds Rhinos were a restaurant it'd be struggling on Trip Advisor and banging out Groupon vouchers left, right and centre. The fact that it's not is simply down to the loyalty of its fan base and feeding that revenue stream with a constant line of BS is frankly insulting.

Tell us the truth GH - we deserve it!

What do you honestly think that'll achieve? People only want to know out of personal intrigue, not because they think it'll help the situation by airing dirty laundry.

I want to know because I nosy but as they say "a problem shared is a problem halved".

There are some basic principles to any form of customer service when things go wrong:

1. Apologise to your customer
2. Acknowledge that their expectations haven't been met
3. Explain to your customer why it went wrong
4. Explain what you're doing to put it right
5. Offer some sort of compensation for the poor service

Can't say I've seen any of those in anything that either Hetherington, McDermott or the players have come out with in the media this season. Lots of excuses, but not much else.

That's true for most normal businesses, however a professional sports team isn't a normal business and I don't know why people try and use comparisons to normal businesses to try and make a point.

Last time I checked most normal businesses aren't under the same spotlight as a sports team, especially certain individuals with microphones stuck in front of their faces in front of tv cameras on a weekly basis. Nor are their performances shown live on Sky Sports most weeks.

If we get an explanation/apology/future plans interview from GH then it should be only at seasons end, not now.

Leeds Cricket Football and Athletic Company Limited are indeed a normal business; their job is to make money. One of the products that they use to generate income is Leeds Rhinos.

Also you are confusing 'Performance' with product. What we see on Sky Sports is a product of LCFAC Ltd.

When you purchase a product or service you become a customer and with that you should expect some basic customer service; something the Leeds Rhinos are currently neglecting to provide.

Just because you believe that Rugby League isn't a 'normal' business doesn't me that its paying customers should be neglected.

Would agree with all of that.

So I take it when you go to the cinema and watch what turns out to be a disappointing film you demand Warner Brothers or Paramount to publicly apologise to you and tell you what they're going to do to make sure you're never disappointed again. Or if you buy an album and you don't end up liking it you demand you money back and an acknowledgment from the band that they messed up?

If I went to the pictures every week to watch a Paramount film and every week I was presented with 60 minutes of poor footage recorded on a 1987 camcorder while paying a premium price then I would indeed want compensating to some respect.

At least make your analogies some what comparable.

That's exactly the point though, sport isn't comparable to normal business but you somehow wanted it to be.

Of course sport is business, there's an entire industry built around sport business. You can take a degree in it, there are recruitment companies that specialise in sport business placements.

It is as much a 'normal' business as any other section of the entertainment industry; film, theatre, music, etc. you pay your money and you expect to be entertained. In exactly the same way as if a band turned up on stage and had forgotten how to play their instruments or an opera singer who'd lost their voice, I'd want to know why I'd just shelled out my hard earned to be let down.

What I wouldn't want to hear is "Plácido wasn't as good as he'd hoped to be tonight, but if you come back next week, pay for another ticket, I'm sure he'll be fine".

To be constantly served the same extremely poor performances week in, week out and be told that everything is hunky dory and we shouldn't worry is simply unacceptable to those of us that have more than an ounce of common sense. To believe the BS that is being churned out of HQ right now makes you simply naïve.

I think The Printer is right in that you cannot compare a sport with normal business in that there can be no guarantees that a game will produce excitement, quality play, or favourable results. However unhappy customers can make the same choices as normal business and that is take their custom somewhere else.

Supporters are understandably looking for a silver bullet or magic fix and as usual call for the head of the coach. However if you stand back and look for what is different between last season and this there are some clues that do not need Sherlock Holmes to spot.

1. The coaching staff is the same as last season when we won the historic treble.

2. But playing squad has changed - we have lost 3 long term key players

3. The replacements for these three retiring players are not of the same quality and crucially we have lost out 2 key leaders on the field.

4. Although we had our share of injuries last season, this season is worse with regularly missing half of the squad including our new captain and on field organiser.

5. Unlike last season our preseason was affected (to what extent can be argued about) by floods destroying our training facilities. More than halfway through the season the replacement facility is still not ready.

6. Some senior players have mysteriously lost form (although there were some signs of this just after last years Cup final)

7. Our results and performances have been woeful and we have dropped form 1st place to last place in the table.


A. So the clues say that the previously very successful coaching set up has not changed and it is inconceivable that they are not doing the same things in training or are unaware of the teams faults and failing to try and correct them.

B. The clues also say we have not recruited well enough especially in the key on field leadership area where we have a serious problem

C. The clues say we have had two further outside factors (lack of adequate training facilities and a worse injury situation)

Now it could be that there is nothing more than the above set of circumstances exacerbated by the club failing to quickly sort out the training problem and they also failed to sign some loan/short term contract players as Cas and others have done.

Or it could be there is some missing factor that we don't know about, like for instance: players discontent with their pay. maybe faloon and co are on much better money! Maybe an un-kept promise or they have lost the faith because the club has been slow to sort out the training facilities. Or in the wake of the chase for Sam Burgess and the rumours of offering Watkins to Bath as part of the deal that the squad has become disenchanted.

There are many conspiracy theories but one that I do not believe is that performances are down because Mac has lost the dressing room. If this were so it would have to go back to our poor start on Boxing Day. So if this were the case why has GH and the directors allowed this to continue for more than half a season?

It would be interesting to hear all of the other conspiracy theories?

I didn't say it wasn't a business. I said it wasn't a normal business. If you order something online and it gets delivered broken that's a completely different thing to a sports team not playing well.

Well of course it's completely different, one's your mail order life size, deluxe, self inflating Vinyl Vera (with real hair) that deflates every 12 minutes and the other is a Championship, League and Cup winning professional sports team that can't do the basics that are mastered by your average U10's team.

But, the basic principals of customer service still apply.

It's simple business ethics 101 - pi[size=100ss[/size off your customers enough and sooner rather than later you wont need to.

TBH it doesn't matter what the cause is right now. The issue is what can/should be done about it.

Obviously if BM were a brand new coach he would have been fired by now. He isn't, and has a lot of credit in the bank. However, GH will be looking at the fact that from a competitive viewpoint the season is over, and the possibility of a relegation battle in the Middle 8s is more likely than scraping into the top 8.

If performances continue to be dire in the run-up to the Middle 8s I just can't see how GH could risk BM suddenly being able to turn things around when every game counts. If we start to improve and be competitive he'll be given to the end of the year, but even then the question needs to be asked as to whether BM ought to be given responsibility to rebuild further when the team has collapsed so spectacularly on his watch.

I think you are wrong here - Leeds is a business just like M&S its major objective is to generate enough cash flow to survive. Its customer profile and its higher level aims maybe be different but the basic objective is no different.

As I see it Leeds have three distinct customer groups:
1. Loyal supporters who will turn up and spend money regardless - on their own they don't generate sufficient cash flow to keep the club afloat.

2. Away supporters - not much GH can do about encouraging them other than provide them with comfortable facilities/attractive pricing to watch the game



3. Floating/corporate - this is the group that act like customers in normal businesses. This group makes the difference between surplus or deficit at the end of the year. These customers are looking for value for money, why spend >£25 on a game to watch what Leeds have been serving up this year or if you are a corporate several thousand pounds. No wonder GH looked concerned on Thursday. This group have choices where they spend their money - if they buy a bad product they think twice about returning. If you have a bad meal how often do you return to the restaurant?

Some thing are certain - Leeds will sell less season tickets next season, crowds overall will be down, corporate will be less lucrative. In all businesses standards have to be maintained, that doesn't mean Leeds have to win the treble every year but the quality of the offering should be comparable. It is no surprise Wigan focus on winning at home - it isn't just about the two points it is about so much more.

Paramount do acknowledge they get wrong - the star who is supposed to carry the film - isn't a star anymore and cannot command the fees he/she once could - pretty brutal. Michael Caine made the following comment "A good actor looks at a script to see they he can add the film, a star looks at the script to see what it can add to them".

sorry double post

The only thing the same is that M&S sell pants and Leeds Rhinos are pants!

Nonsense, history is littered with big name movie stars appearing in flop films and still being a big star regardless.

That's true, but that isn't the area I'm saying that sports club aren't like normal businesses.

Understand Burrow may be out. Thinking of a loan signing - is vinyl Vera a hooker?

in every area sport is like a normal business. Because they are businesses.

People for some reason pretend Sport is some whole new thing because they can't draw direct parallels between an RL club and a supermarket and that becomes a catch all excuse.

But its ridiculous, a sports club is no more different from a supermarket than film studio is. an RL club is no more different from an investment bank than a fishing vessel is and Leeds Rhinos are no less similar to a lumberyard as Google is. All are businesses, all operate under the same basic principles, and all are comparable to each other on a fundamental level even though superficially they are vastly vastly different.