Even easier if he were from Castleford.

Didn't stop you incorrectly including him before moving on to the non-Internationals.




If only. You listed six + one who didn't make his full England RU debut until after leaving pro League + one that Rothman's has never even heard of (Thomas Holiday at Oldham?)

As far as making contributions of note for GB (as you claim) I'm not sure any made more than a literal hand full in total. Hardly what many would call 'GB Internationals of note.' Unless the note in question was hastily scribbled on the back of a beer mat during a pub quiz.



Post 1990:
Scott Gibbs (St Helens), Richard Webster (Salford), Mark Jones (Hull), Allan Bateman (Warrington), Rowland Phillips (Warrington), Scott Quinnell (Wigan)

Around 1989/1990: David Young (Leeds), Jonathan Griffiths (St Helens), John Devereux (Widnes), Paul Moriarty (Widnes), Jonathan Davies.



Which were the three from your original list of eight? Keith Fielding, John Bentley and which other?

Bev Risman - 60's
Ray French - 60's
Mike Coulman - 60's
Jim Brough - 20's
BJ Mather - Ineligable
Thomas Holiday - Does he even exist?



Yes I agree to an extent, although England RU did use to cap a hell of a lot of talentless dross (still probably do) who wouldn't have lasted five minutes in League. [i'Can this lad play?' 'No, not really but his old school tie will look nice on the team photo.'[/i



Yup don't disagree with that. Although some might argue what Offiah brought came more from the track than the rugby field. First time he played at Headingley he covered the width of the pitch and got tackled into touch .... twice and to much amusement amongst the 'A' crowd faithful. He soon learnt though and we weren't laughing much after that.

Just a pity that crossover was a one-way street for 100 years with players victimised for mixing with fellow amateurs.



At last something we can agree on ..... unsurprisingly as I said as much earlier in the thread.

Has this been confirmed yet?

If as (seems certain) this goes ahead I hope he does well - as Tvoc says successful converts only serve to advertise our game.

However, I'm not confident - to me Eastmond has the hallmarks of a poorly thought out Union sighing (like Iestyn, Farrell, Paul etc)...where will he play? No chance of ever being a Union half back as the tactical difference between the games is so vast, little chance in the three-quarters as union has gone down the bigger is better route (eg Sonny-bill as a centre, ) so that leaves full back...does Eastmond have the kicking game to play there in Union? (I know Jason Robinson was a success playing mainly at full back but frankly he's a unique talent so not a viable comparison)

All in all I think it'll be a real shame if he goes to union - a real lost talent from a British RL point of view but likely to be a wasted talent in the other code (even if he is ultimately a sucess I can't see him ever using his full range of attacking talents in the kicking code)

On the Sky coverage from Wheldon Road last night it made reference to a Saints official (could have even been Simmons) hoping Eastmond would declare his intentions soon. So it still sounds unofficial at the moment.



I tend to agree but I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to the ised version of League. If he goes I suspect he'll be back sooner rather than later.

Incorrect. I did not say Drew Broatch was an International. See my quote below.

"Wales RU of course produced a conveyor belt of talent and Scotland chipped in with a few as well - the great Dave Valentine (Huddersfield), Ronnie Cowan, Drew Broatch & Alan Tait etc"

You mentioned no timescale limitations!

However if you want another Scottish RU International convert then there is the actor Roy Kinnear's father Roy Muir Kinnear who also played 4 times for the British Lions before joining Wigan where he scores 81 tries in 182 games and also was a GB League international.






Wrong again tvoc: I listed 8 dual code internationals. See my quote below

"Apart from John Bentley there are several notable England RU internationals that converted to RL. - Bev Risman, (Leigh, Leeds) Mike Coulman (Salford), Keith Fielding (Salford). Barrie John Mather (Wigan & England Schools RU) If you go back futher you have Ray French (St Helens), and the great Leeds legend Jim Brough and Thomas Holliday (Oldham)"

Thomas Holliday played for Aspatria, captained Cumberland and was capped 7 times for England. He also went on the British Lions tour of South Africa.

Do keep up at the back tvoc- you really must get some better sources.

Barrie John Mather learnt his rugby playing Union and had proven International talent. He became an International at schoolboy level which I stated. He was in the same International (18 yr old) schoolboy side as Matt Dawson and Richard Hill and the only reason he did not get his full cap before converting to league was that he signed for Wigan the following year as a 19 year old! He later went on to get full caps in both League and Union. So he was a proven International - what is your point?



What are you talking about?

All these were rugby players of note in both codes. The number of caps a player achieves is not the way to judge his talent. In bygone days their were few Internationals compared with today. You asked for "proven International talent" which all this list have.

eg: Fielding jointly holds the record for the most tries scored in an England RL match. He scored 253 tries in 319 games for Salford and 10 tries in 12 RL internationals. Plus he won the 1981 TV Superstars series final and the Challenge of Champions final in 1981 and finished 3rd in the 182 series final.




Like I said you have to go back more than 2 decades to find more than a handful of Welsh Internationals that converted to League.

As I rememeber Brian Jacks judo career was ended by a very small girl. She threw him and did his back or something and that was it.

Now runs an hotel in Thailand apparantly.

What relevance to that point are timescales?

After your quoted bit above you immediately went on to say:


If I misunderstood your point re Broatch then I withdraw that comment.



I did see it the first time and I weren't overly impressed with it then either.



How can Thomas Holliday be described as a 'dual code International' if he never played Internationally at Rugby League? What was his other International code, quidditch?

Re Mather - The discussion is supposed to be about ex England Internationals converting to League (I presume most would expect those to be full Internationals rather than including those with only schoolboy honours at the time of crossing the great divide - which would widen the scope)



Are you disputing the Rothmans Rugby League Yearbook and it's chief statistician Ray Fletcher? When did Thomas Holliday play for the GB Rugby League team? You've described him as 'dual code' (twice now) so when was it?

You may be right, just say when it was.



=#FF0000You don't know that.

My point is he wasn't a full England RU player before he joined professional Rugby League (and that was basically what the discussion was about) so his inclusion was nothing more than a pointless diversion to bolster a low number. The number of ex-English RU Internationals to play League is still low even with his spurious inclusion. What he went on to achieve in RU Internationally after he left League is also fairly irrelevant to this code.



=#FF0000I'd like to see the stats re the number of International games played to back that assertion up. In 1975 (we'll call it Fielding's golden era) England played 10 games, I'd say that compared pretty favourably to the 4 England played in 2010.

You say 'all the list have' but only Keith Fielding appears above and a lot of that pertains to Superstars rather than RL unless I missed the bit where Les Dyl got in his canoe to score the winning try. Of course Fielding's record equalling haul for England RL in a match V France in '75 cannot be sniffed at. He gained 3 GB caps in total so will have been thankful when England and Wales seperated for the World Cup that year, giving him a look in without the additional competing of Sullivan, Bevan, Mathias or Richards for a place in the side. Not that he was able to hold off Atkinson, Dunn and Wright anyway. I'm not knocking Fielding he's at least a genuine 'dual code' International.



Define two decades and why specifically two decades anyway as opposed to lets say 25 years? You had four decades (70's, 80's, 90's 00's) to come up with five ex-England Internationals and you struggled (and probably failed?) to do that.

I did the equivalent with the ex-Welsh International lads with basically half the time-frame allowed as that given for England and for each additional five years I could probably add another handful. Give me 25 years (1986 to date) and I'll add Terry Holmes, Rob Ackerman, David Bishop and Gary Pierce to the eleven full Internationals mentioned higher up and I haven't yet added the name of Gareth Thomas.

Ex England Internationals either in terms of quantity or quality cannot by and large compare to the value added by the boyos from the Valleys.

What's Alan Tait upto these days?

He is/was coaching Newcastle Falcons mate although going by their results he could soon be on the dole with Andy Key of Carnegie.

ta

If you include BJ Mather because he was a junior RU international, then would you also include the likes of Shaun Edwards and Richard Gunn (both dual code junior internationals IIRC)?

:32wzqkij

Because your original point had no time restriction yet you later introduced one:

:32wzqkij

And because you introduced a timescale when you tried to belittle my list of 8 England dual code Internationals when you stated " Given that in order to recall more than a single handful of Ex England RU Internationals you have had to go back =#4000BF:32wzqkijseveral decades:32wzqkij"


:32wzqkij

Sorry these 8 dual code Internationals didn't come up to your standards tvoc!

Because he played for the England National Rugby League team. That is why he is known as a dual code International! Fact.

:32wzqkij

Never presume!
Mather was an 18 yr old international who signed for Wigan when 19 yrs old. Most pundits belived he would have quickly gained a full England cap including Wigan RL who believed he was proven International quality. Make no mistake to get into the 18yr old England RU International side is some achievement.

Shaun Edwards captained England schoolboys at Union but did not gain a full England cap because he too signed for Wigan RL on his 17th birthday. Are you saying he too is not of proven International quality?

You cannot dismiss and rubbish England RU's contribution as a breeding ground for League on the premise of a lack of full International England RU caps. This is my point and going off on tangents does not hide the error of your statement.

:32wzqkij

Well if you are to be believed their records are not complete are they?

I have to repeat Thomas Holliday played for England RL. Are you now saying this is not proven International quality?


:32wzqkij

We have been talking about International quality . You are trying to move the goalposts again. I have already given the reasons for a low conversion for England RU Internationals so this is not the argument.

How can you argue that Mather was not proven International quality when he was an 18 yr old RU International - converted to League at 19 - became a League International - returned to Union and got his full Union International cap. To say other wise makes a nonsense of your definition of quality.

:32wzqkij

Why are you now quoting Union Internationals? Your comment was relating to RL not Union. See your quote below:

:32wzqkij


My point was in reply to your above comment belittling these dual code Internationals. I repeat there were certainly less Internationals in bygone days. Prove me wrong?

:32wzqkij

Which from my list of 8 dual code Internationals were not genuine? I know there is one who you were unaware of, are the others just ones you don't like then and does this make then not genuine?

:32wzqkij

I had named 5 England RU Internationals who converted to League from the 70's 80's & 90's which was a challange from totalloiner. Thes players converted in three decades not 4 as you incorrectly stated and I completed the challenge.




Well here we agree. But that was not the main argument was it?

Forgive me not replying in kind but life's too short.

Re numbers of Internationals in bygone days, I was talking League numbers (we both were - why would I introduce numbers of Union Internationals played when I was talking what the player's achieved in League and whether those deeds were 'of note' as you put it.) I gave an example where Keith Fielding got the opportunity to play in far more than his equivalent would get today, answering that point.

I note you haven't taken the opportunity to back up your assertion that there are more comparable RL Internationals played today either. It's your point back it up with facts. Mick Sullivan in 10 years (1954 to 1963) played 46 Tests for GB. I make that 4.6 a year and that's even if he played in them all which I would find hard to comprehend any player doing. How does that compare?

I said I (that is Rothmans) could be an incomplete record (although Gentleman Jim is on the list) that is why I asked for a time when Holiday or Holliday (you've spelt it two ways so far) played International RL. It should be easier for you to prove something happened rather than I to prove it didn't (at least I've offered a source.) Just post the proof, quote a reference and we can put that one to bed.

To this point your Thomas Holliday bio consists of:



None of that sounds to me like League talk. Was there an England RL team in the 20's?


Mather didn't gain a full England RU cap before joining league, no matter what you, or I or any number of good judges may say that is the fact and so cannot be included as a full England International before coming to League. How is that controversial.

Who then are your 5 ex-England full Internationals that crossed to League during a 40, sorry 30 year period 1970 to 1999 inclusive (an average of 1 every 6 years)

Even then it's such a low benchmark as to be almost an irrelevant statistics as a source of future potential RL talent especially when set against the Valleys an area completely foreign to the code where converts were forced to give up much more than their amateur status to make the switch.

__________



Of course you would (and countless others besides) but given the overwhelming bias given to RU in schools, even in the traditional RL heartlands, it would be a fairly meaningless point of reference.

Was top class schoolboy RL available to these youngsters growing up, was it promoted by the staff, was there the infrastructure to encourage participation.

From my own experience it was Union or nowt when it came playing Rugby, albeit that was in Pudsey and were all a little bit posh coming from there (we even have our own world famous bear), oh yes we do.

Funny how life's only too short for you when you have lost the argument!



England cap 1928 . Signed (aged 2icon_cool.gif for Oldham 1926-29 scored 33 tries in 83 games as full back.





Look he was International quality as his record proves. To try and say otherwise is futile. The point was the quality of converts.




I have already named 5 England RU Internationals that converted from 1974-1992 that is 18 years not 40. (Fielding, Bentley, Mathers, Lampkowski & Heslop) Which was the challenge. If you add 10 years of the 60's you can add Mike Coulman, Bev Risman & Ray French

You are still trying to hedge off your original statement which I contest.

The sole way you are judging talent is the number of International caps they have (now restricted to full caps although not originally stated) This is a simplistic and wrong as it rules out the likes of Shaun Edwards, Mather, Atkinson, Offiah etc and the many lesser players who have learned their rugby in the union code and enriched League at professional level.

I bet he'd still whup her on the gym tests on Superstars though.

Yes good point.

It's also funny as you still got your reply.



Right now we are getting somewhere. Is that just the one England RL Cap and would that be against (and I'm guessing here) Wales perhaps?

So earlier when you said



That included Holliday who never appeared in a GB RL jersey (according to Rothmans) and Mather who never appeared in a full England RU jersey before coming to League.



And the test wasn't to name players of International quality (a matter of opinion) it was to name Ex England Internationals (a matter of fact) to suggest otherwise is even more futile.



A challenge on that evidence you have failed. A test that was passable given I've suggested an elusive 5th member to try and help you out earlier but one you appear reticent to use, prefering to include a clearly ineligable player in order to 'win'.



And if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle. The question was probably originally posed in all innocense and you've had the devil's own job answering it with any credibility, manipulating the time-frame and adding your own bizarre qualification criteria.

Proves the point that ex-English RU Internationals have never been more than a hiccup in the superior code.



That was never once contested by me that I recall, indeed on the previous page you must of conveniently missed when I said =#FF0000'Yup I don't disagree with that.' They say some people can find an argument in an empty room. I think I've found one.

Yes we are getting somewhere and I'm guessing you have finally cross checked your sources and belatedly realise Holliday was a full dual code International, which you had doubted. He also played 7 times for England RU and also the British and Irish Lions.

I note you have not the grace to accept that I was right on this point and you, your Rothmans handbook and its editor had as "a matter of fact" overlooked this players League International record !

Instead you sadly seek to decry Holliday for not having made more League International appearances as if this somehow excuses for your lack of knowledge of this player.

I have already stated that he converted to League late in his rugby life which limited his appearances but not his ability. He was 30 when he played for England RL. Perhaps you can pass these facts on to your editor chum at Rothmans in time for the next edition.

So your original comments were as follows.



So forget about ...Shaun Edwards, John Atkinson, Martin Offiah, Derek Hallas etc plus many good youngsters over the years



This is not correct. As I have previously pointed out the motivation to convert was not the money for most England International players




I think most of the players I have named are top proven International quality as most became dual code internationals.

You can wriggle off on as many tangents as you like but your original statement is based on a narrow prejudiced view.

Having read a fair bit of this I think you made a mistake when you tried to use dual code internationals (Capped England RU then moving to become capped in League) to make a point about the contribution of English RU in general to RL. It's a bad example, as there are virtually none of real note. It becomes even worse if you compare it to the contribution from Wales to our code which has been immense and is now drastically missed.
It's true, that many league players have come from English RU clubs, mostly during the amateur era though. I can think of some just at Leeds, Andy Mason, Andy Smith, Jim Fallon, I think there were several others (backs) who came that way. There has been a huge contribution - none bigger than Mr Offiah - one of the all time greats. So here I would agree.
Citing schoolboys though is not a great example, I think TVOC makes a good point about the lack of league promotion in schools compared to Union makes it almost inevitable that any good RL youngster might have found himself in representative RU via his school.

I think there are two different arguments going on here, and so it could be a long night.

I preferred it when tvoc & juan cornetto were arguing about planes.

I was actually taking the p*ss when suggesting you could count schoolboys as 'internationals'. Citing an 18-year old BJ Mather as an 'international' is a joke - surely???

You said GB International. I checked GB International and he didn't appear. I asked for verification, a link to such record or resource you didn't provide one.



How were you right when you said GB International. They overlooked every England cap awarded before 1975, perhaps because they were secondary in value to that awarded for GB, perhaps not.

It doesn't alter the fact you have had to go back to around the 1920's to get beyond the fingers of one Castleford hand in regards England RU Internationals to cross the divide. You're still proving (not disproving) the case that there have been pitifully few by that measure.



This is a player long before my time and never played for Great Britain despite your claim to the contrary. I know nothing about him and if that makes me a bad person then so be it, I suspect I may not be alone.



You stated he had played for Great Britain. Rothman's stated otherwise. Am I now to assume they were right and you were wrong? As there hasn't been a new edition of the yearbook printed since the game switched to summer that may prove difficult.



You're just rambling now.

These don't appear to be any of my comments.

=#FF0000None of this latest batch became dual code Internationals that I'm aware of although they were are all very fine League players.

Did Shaun Edwards even ever play a game of 1st class rugby union (park rugby doesn't count although it comes close - apart from the cross code challenge match V Bath in '96) after he signed on for Wigan on his 17th birthday?

__________



Leave us alone. We're just getting started.

We haven't even got to the bit where I get accused of being abusive yet.