After having got stuck on the M62 for the second week running on my way to watch utter garbage again here is my take on each player.

1. Hardaker - one of Leeds' better players - very committed but tough to shine in a team that is so poor. The worry would be his kick return I can't remember the last time he broke the line.

2. Handley - tried hard but lacks size and power for the way Leeds want to use their wingers - inconsistent under the high ball

3. Watkins - poor, less said the better

4. Keinhorst - tackled himself to a standstill but doesn't have the ball skills or speed to be an effective centre

5. Hall - looks to be carrying too much timber - he never shirks the work but Manfredi has his number all night

6. Sutcliffe - poor, he looks more creative when he running ball in hand than when he either passes or kicks - not sure what that says other than if he is the future someone needs to teach him how to read the game.

7. Lilley - in a word slow - he will not make an impression against the better sides until he improves his pace and speed of thought

8. Galloway - makes Lilley look like Usain Bolt - he must had lead in his boots, I thought he would be a good signing but he looks really one paced and lacking genuine power - can't remember him making more than a couple of yards per carry

9. Burrow - a season too far to be starting - he shouldn't be dictating the plays - never a hooker

10. Cuthbertson - can't knock his effort but in a team that are so far behind the eight ball his skill set will never be optimised

11. Ferres - if he is an international second row I will eat my hat - perhaps his off the field antics have impacted his energy he looks slow and a bit niggly - not a Leeds player for me, at least it is only a year.

12. Achurch - lacks confidence but with his lack of conviction and skill so would you. What is the hair about is he doing Brideshead resisted?

13. Singleton - can't knock his effort but his impact was none existent - forgot he was on the field tbh.

14. Garbutt - returning after his last bout - pity he was so easily contained by the Wigan forwards - he looks out of shape and out of desire - possibly explains why he is here and not in the NRL a good player in a team going well but not somebody who is going to dig you out of hole.

15. JJB - welcome back - he was the best Leeds player during his time on the field. Looked fit full of energy and had fire in his belly. Hopefully he will kick some backside now he is back

16. Falloon - early days - he never made much impression in the NRL and he looks like what he is a stop gap until something better comes along. On a positive a big improvement on Burrow at 9

17. Mullally - what is he bringing - no wonder he has struggled to secure a starting position anywhere else - reminds me of Feather, size but no power or skill.

18. McDermott - he sounds like a very worried man - can he turn it around, I'm sure he can.

I would say that is spot on for last night, except two things. Ferres does not look slow, the rest of the point correct, but not slow. The point on Mullaley describes Galloway not him. He does look promising.

Also your point on Hardaker is correct, but he certainly kept us in that game in the main on his own in the first half last night, even though he too missed some. People talk about good defence because of the scoreline, but it wasn't really because of a team effort.

The Manfredi run and the Gelling try were very poor defensive efforts - Mullally I really don't share you positivity but the season has a long way to go and you could be proved correct. I would have to watch the game again re. Ferres he just looked off his game last night

Look at how hard Manfredi and Charnley returned the ball. We lacked all of that desire. Defensively we are woeful. Wingers can't catch the high ball either. Galloway is appalling. Can he bend down to tackle? I have praised Lilley this past month, but until he learns to tackle, he'll never make it. A season at Fev would do him good once Mags is back. Sutty, still nowhere near a stand off. Takes the ball in more often than a prop. We MUST buy a stand off sharpish. Burrow has had his time.

Nor sure how much you missed Sal but IMO Hardaker played possibly his worst game for Leeds and was one of the least effective players. He missed vital tackles and made few meters.

Our 6,7 & 9 between them made 1 tackle bust, 2 offloads and no clean breaks and devoid of ideas.

Cuthbertson and Ferres did the most work but Garbutt looked too fat and never bust a tackle along with Singleton, Achurch and Falloon. Galloway just plodded but wasn't the worst forward and I wouldn't bag Mullally who did ok in a well beaten pack.

Desperately need McGuire back. Should really have covered our half back weakness in the off season.

I agree Zac missed some tackles but his hunger/work rate are still there which seems to be missing from a number of his team mates.

Concur re. the half backs and Garbutt

He already said about his metre making. I said he still missed some tackles. But your biased view on Hardaker shows that you are watching a different game entirely. He was the difference between a respectable scoreline, and a big big hammering. Any biase can surely not hide that been seen.

Bloody hell, just seen the stats, and that missed tackle section is horrendous. Every single player missed at least one tackle.

Interesting that Achurch has been the scapegoat and got critisism on other threads, IMO wrongly, yet Keinhorst gets praise, IMO rightly, as their respective stats are identical for the game, except Achurch made more metres per carry, and of course played much les minutes.

Agree with most of this. I would personally rather see baldwinson get a shot somewhere but would rather see mullaly than Ben cross mk 2 on the field.

My big worry is the lack of any halfback in our team. We need mags back but by the time he gets back the top 4 spot will potentially be out of reach. Going forward sutty doesn't look like he is good enough at half

Wrong! Dan Sarginson's inability to catch the ball, coupled with forward passes (when he did eventually catch it) was the reason it wasn't a hammering. Hardaker is a shadow of the 2015 version.

Agree with the last point he looks a pale imitation of the 2015 model

Sal mentioned the worry would be his kick returns and failure to break the line no mention of metres of missed tackles.

It is your bias and love affair with ZH that blinds you to his inadequacies. As I have consistently pointed out, Hardaker's game is heavily based on physicality with little creativity on attack. He dies with the ball far too often and rarely passes or creates space for others as good full backs should. His good points are his ability under the high ball, goal line defense and metre making. So I do not regard him as highly as you do and his lack of attacking skills greatly reduce the effectiveness of our back line.

Maybe he has just lost his form this season or maybe the opposition have worked him out. Either way he is something of a busted flush so far this year at a time when the experienced players are needed to step up to the plate. To underline that this is not bias but a genuine opinion as a big fan of Burrow I include him in the same critical way to date.

Not sure what you are referring to there on last night. I am not disagreeing on the 2016 Hardaker, I am dissagreeing on last night. He kept us in that game on his own at times, and therefore deserves the credit for it. That is not his passing, or his running, but his reading of the game and defensive effort, which I already said he missed some. That is why your biase shines through.

Indeed just noticed the rhinos site, and McDermotts interview, the man who really can do no wrong in your eyes. His view was only praising Hardaker and saying it would have been a bigger scoreline but for him. You have a bit of a difference there with your own love affair,

Im still not sure the problem lies with the halves. Sutcliffe and Lilly both had great games for us last year, both were with Mcguire granted, but if he improved them that much then he should have been in the world XIII never mind the dream team.
Sutcliffe especially has shown in the past an ability to pick out the right passes and kicks, but whenever he has the ball this year their seems to be no options, forcing him to run, I dont know if thats his fault or the men outside him, but our attacking structure needs a lot of work.

No one in particular to blame, another game where the whole team looks lost in attack and tired and lazy in defence
Mac better get us moving fast or top 4 will already be gone by may

you can pull apart the team player by player but what we lack is a leader! We need an effective player who is going to be on the field the full 80 mins and have the desire to dig deep. Going into the sheds 6-0 down should have been a positive the amount of defending we'd done. I cant help but think kicking into space on the fourth or even third to put wigan under some pressure last night would have given us a breather in the first half.

I am not questioning his effort and I agree he put in more tackles than usual in the first half. You say he missed some but chose not to say that some of his missed tackles were embarrassing and most of them were crucial and led to tries. That is not acceptable at this level especially as his attack is so poor. He made the most errors and the least average gain (2.83 metres per carry) and just one tackle bust which for a physical player is poor.

On this occasion I cannot agree with Mac, perhaps he is trying to boost ZH's obviously dented confidence. I really hope that Zak regains his form along with most of the other players that are also struggling.

Well you wouldn't would you, that is because you have an issue with the player and can not form a reasoned view.

You are not incorrect on some poor misses, or running, but you still can not accept his contribution in keeping that score respectable at a stage, and individually. That was what really happened last night. Is it good enough for man of steel? No it isn't, but he still was one of the better last night, and kept that Wigan scoreline down.

Let's all be honest here, Hardaker took a while to get going last year, he's started pretty much the same this so people saying he's a different version to last, no he's not he's just taking a while to get going AGAIN!

True, said when it came to MOS time that I would go for one of the two props over Hardaker because Hardaker was actually pretty average/ok for the first 8-10 games of last season.

As for last night and the reason the scorelines was still tight at HT was completely down to Wigan. They were good in all departments until they got near our try line and you could see how badly they missed Williams, Tomkins and McIlorum. The latter especially, wasn't a problem last night but come the crunch games missing McIlorum and having Powell instead could be costly.

I'm wondering if Hardaker isn't performing quite so well because he appears to have grown up? It's a while since he's been in any bother. Perhaps his form feeds off behaving badly (like John McEnroe in Tennis) therefore he needs to resume his role of Serial Miscreant?

I've not seen the stats from last night, but I'd say Hardaker has been overall our strongest player along with Cuthbertson so far this season. I think he's having to do far too much work in returning the ball, the stats last week show him to make 2nd most metres, and 3rd most carries, just one less than Singleton. He doesn't look as dangerous as last season because he's basically a one man attack as far as the backs are concerned, running in broken space is his forte along with supporting breaks from other players. I still think he is a standout in a poor team at the moment, and until others up their game you will not see the best of Zak.

GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY FOR LEEDS FROM LAST NIGHTS TEAM (not last nights performance)

HARDAKER
WATKINS
HALL
CUTHBERTSON
GARBUTT
FERRES if he stops giving daft penalties away
SINGLETON
J.J.B
BURROW as sub



PLAYERS GOOD ENOUGH THAT ARE INJURED

BRISCOE
MOON
MAGS
ABLETT
WARD


COACH - Despite all the trophies - the jury is still out

I have offered my view of Hardaker with consistent reason. That my opinion is different than yours does not make it unreasonable or wrong. Indeed others are coming to realise Hardaker's attacking deficiencies too and his overrated one on one defense which are the issues I have have pointed out from the start. IMO he is usually a very good defender but lacks the skills needed to be rated top class. It would appear you have a touch of "the King's new clothes"

"You are not incorrect" Is this Gotcha speak to avoid admitting I am right?

I always laugh at people who say that a player is good enough to play for a club (Leeds or whoever). You can be a very good player, but if you have little respect for the club and lazy, then is it worth having a super talent at your club? Keinhorst for example, is a good squad player. He is lucky to get some game time at Leeds.But he has more heart and shows more fight, than a number of alleged big name players. He gives his best and rarely lets his team down. He is not the most talented or the most skillful player by a long way. Personally I would rather have somebody like that in my team, than some Aussie like Galloway or Achurch.

Its amazing how people can knock a Coach like Brian Mcdermott. I presume its some fluke, that his teams has won the Grand Final and Challenge Cup so often. I presume he has little idea on the game looking at his record. Everybody knew Leeds would struggle this year. Some big name players like Ferres and Galloway have let themselves and teammates down so far. A bit unlucky that Danny Mcguire, your captain, is injured in the very first game. Leeds Rhinos, as I understand had a bad pre season with Kirkstall being out of action. Such things have a big impact. I am sure Mr Mcdermott has made some mistakes, but I think him and the Leeds club have had some bad luck. Looking at his record, any fans who think he is a poor coach, seriously need to look at what he has achieved and the respect he has from people, who have a far better understanding of the game than most, if not all on here.

From an FC fan; your assessment on Galloway is very, very kind. He looks shot. He reminds me of a player we would sign. He is a plodder and not a very good one.