All those teams haven't finished bottom under licencing so why couldn't they improve under P&R ????

Saints downfall is more to do with the cream of British RL retiring within a few seasons at the club. How do you replace Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham etc etc ????



It was near enough the same price when we were in NL1 and as many (if not more) were coming through the gates. Under P&R our crowds whatever the league (and we haven't been any good in 10 years now) we were getting more in. What do you suggest we do to sell a game between ourselves and Salford with nothing to play for ???



Endured what in P&R ??? a massive 2 relegations in our whole history



Salford. Wakey and Widnes are your examples of franchising working ???? 1 play off spot between all of them since its started.......big time !!!!



Top teams play to be league leader
Mid Table play for the play offs
Bottom play for .....errrm well nothing

Your using the PL as an example ??? the league with p&r that is one of the worlds most successful competitions ???

Of course id rather have P&R (With as I say a 1 year exemption to build for the promoted team like Catalans did and Widnes have had chance to do). It would at least make me look forward to Cas games again and have something to fight for apart from trying to finish above Wakey.



Bad management ??? from whom ??? the accountancy company who passed all the above clubs financial plans and said Halifax couldn't enter SL because the finances were too speculative ????

Also aren't HKR struggling now too ???

All positive





Worked well for everyone .... apart from Salford, Wakey, Us and pretty much every club the the national leagues. So worked well for about 10 clubs which would have been ok under any system !!!!

Are you seriously suggesting that people are stayiong away from games not because theres nothing to play for or that standards are down but because of toilets out of order on the first game ???? If that were the case how come the 2 homes games after were Catalans: 5205(with no away support) and Wigan: 7852 down to 3222 against Huddersfield (less than we have sold season tickets) and 3986 vs Widnes mid season.

And why did we have nothing to play for?????

Is it becasue of the league structure, or because we just aren't good enough?

And actually, what we endured through our 2 relegations almost bankrupted the club. So if you want to continue in the vein, then you'll be the only one on the terraces in a few years

Somebody has to be around the bottom, whichever club that is what reason have fans of that club got to attend and spend 50 quid taking the family ??? None.

And did it nearly bankrupt the club ??? You have the club accounts to hand ??? What I saw when we got relegated was building again from bottom up giving youngsters regular playing time.

Castleford vs Wakefield at belle view in 2006... Castleford vs Widnes at Headingly 2007 just like being in a ghost village



Elimination play off vs Widnes in NL1 made a mockery of the 3k that attended in SL this year.

If franchising is so good and has worked so amazingly why is there even a debate to get rid of it ??? It's killing the game IMO

so what you're saying is....

you'd rather s be playing ANtionalt League 1, trying to get through the play offs, to be promoted, battered and relegated again, than have the stability and structure to build in order to compete at the highest level we can?

And don't forget that licensing caused clubs to chase the golden goose resulting in wakey, Bradford and Salford nearly disappearing for good and crusaders despite millions thrown at them failing after a few seasons. . It's only luck that has seen us survive.
You have to face the fact, licensing is killing the game below Superleague level and isn't really doing Superleague any favours.
We need to return to some form of promotion and relegation and a fairer way to share the bit of mone y that the RFL has , instead of just using it for favourites ( Bradford and the Odsal debacle is a prime example)

No grass roots no Superleague , it's that simple

What I'm saying is I'd rather watch a sport with drama and meaning and well attended fixtures right through the season than what we have now (a borefest).

Still if you would rather watch cas in front of 3k in a dying league that's upto you

Afterthought.... Promoted battered again and relegated ??? After we were promoted in 05 we didn't finish bottom Catalans did (you know because they had protection as I suggested promoted teams should have)

This argument that "licensing" caused clubs to enter into financial difficulties is nonsensical. It was rank bad management that led to that, not licensing.

As for the person that said that we haven't progressed under licensing; sorry, I disagree - I think we are the only club that has really stuck to the ideals of licensing and aimed to match the criteria as much as we possibly can with our constraints.

Still, we could have gloriously overspent, got into financial difficulty, entered administration and wiped all our debts clear leaving local businesses out of pocket couldn't we?

It's easy to say life is rosy and wonderful when that happens but if you look at the accounts of some of the clubs you've mentioned, you'll see that our debts are comparatively small, grossly exaggerated by rival fans and the media.

Fully I aren't suggesting we spend money on over-paid players. I think in 5 years of the thorn in our side being our stadium, we should've made some improvements there.

Once again I reiterate.... The crowds being 3000 down Cas isn't because we have nothing to play for due to the league structure.

It's due to the team playing horribly, and having nothing to play for for that sole reason.

Top 8 is achievable for anyone. Unless you're getting beaten every week, as we have been.

It's not the league's fault we are playing for nothing, it's our own fault for not being good enough to compete for anything.

I'd rather us not get relegated again thanks - I'm sure our finance director would agree

I'm sure we all would rather not get relegated, what an odd statement.

It's funny though isn't it that under this league structure attendances have fallen to pre Stuart Raper crowds and we have been rubbish for ten years now so that's no excuse. We had a bab squad in NL1 but were still pulling more crowds than now.

If franchising is so brilliant and amazing for all clubs why is it on the verge of being scrapped ??? Because its killing the game

Can you name me another game in this country's sporting history where a crowds attendance is less than season ticket holders ??? Like I say your argument about being rubbish holds no water because this NEVER happened under P&R even in 04 (what I'd consider the worst team we have had in my lifetime).

CTID, remember we're in a recession and money is tighter than ever before. I work in the club industry all over the country and i see it first hand the impact it's making on peoples' spending - moreso in the north where our Rugby League heartland is.

As Dave as said - people aren't coming to the games not because we have nothing to play for but because of our poor performances. I know this because i am one of those who is avoiding games due to performances. The last few games however have given me hunger to come back as things are looking up.

I don't ask for us to win the league - as stated i think that'll never happen. And although i do feel theres' always a chance we could win the Challenge Cup; all i ever ask for is to go and watch Cas play their hearts out whenever i watch them. I'm sure most fans feel the same.

I know a few season ticket holders that half the time don't even bother to use season tickets because "it doesn't matter if we win or lose". Like i said earlier on the thread the attendance vs Hudds was less than we have season ticket holders.... That's not the recession that's having half a season of glorified friendlys mate.

Great last paragraph btw, pretty much sums my feelings up on Cas.

Aren't the glorified friendlies, as you call them, a result of poor performances? The too are hand-in-hand - you're both arguing the same thing!

Attendances fell because there seemed to be no commitment or effort on the field and no one had faith in the BoD or the coaching staff to deliver changes.

Cas fans have been hit once too many times with a stick and had to suffer so much in such a short space of time. Add into that Leeds' success and you can see why we're getting fans drifting away. I still believe that our fanbase is an ageing one too and as years go by we're finding out much more difficult to replace the loyal fans of yesteryear. We could have a generation that go to support Leeds or Huddersfield rather than ourselves.

If we were regular challengers for the top eight then we may rekindle some interest. But it says it all when we're more expensive than Leeds Rhinos (I paid £20.00 on the day last Friday). People pay value for money; we're not justifiable for our money and it says it all when you can go watch the champions (even though they finished 5th) for a cheaper price.

exactly.

we pay more than Leeds to watch the game - that in itself is outrageous.

and again, exactly. we have nothing to play for because we have put ourselves in that position. The RFL didn't say "right, Cas will be 12th"

the league shouldn't restructure to accomodate the teams playing garbage to give them something to play four.

Let's have a bottom four play-off for the "creme-de-la-crap" cup

This is why rugby league needs to forget this 2 x 12, 3 x 8 plan - it isn't going to work.

They need to work with their broadcasters - Premier Sports and Sky (and French TV BeIn Sport) - along with sponsors, get them all in a room and say we want two fully professional leagues of 12.

And have a two up, two down system going. Two relegation places at the bottom adds more drama. Salary cap of £1.65m in top division and salary cap of £1m for second division.

That's £31m a season between sponsors and TV deals.

Top 5 play-offs 4 v 5 week one, winners through, losers eliminated. Week 2 1 v winners of week one and 2 v 3. Winners of 1st v Week one though to GF, losers play in final elimination play-off. Winners of 2 v 3 through to Final Elim play-off, losers eliminated.

Season is 22 games along, Challenge Cup 5 Rounds, leaving 6 weekends spare where other SL Fixtures would be and the Exiles fixture is.

I'd introduce another Cup competition to give clubs more to play for like the NR Cup but across both leagues with two finals played on same day.

I'd have

3 leagues of 5 randomly drawn comprising top 12 of Tier 1 and top 3 of SL2 (after a certain period of the season meaning there's an incentive). Each team plays 2 home games and 2 away games (to make it fair).

Top 1 of each league goes through (3 teams) and the highest 2nd place finish (decided by points, then PD, then Tries scored).

Then randomly drawn knock-out for the semi-finals and final.

Meanwhile, with Coventry coming in next season, that'll mean that the third tier will have 14 teams and there will be remaining 9 teams who didn't get into the above competition. They'll play for what is the NR Cup (but their own cup final renamed the "League Bowl"

Initially, this will begin on same weekend with just bottom 14 teams in tier 3 - straight knock-out of 7 ties.

Winning 7 will join 9 teams from division above, where it will be 4 leagues of 4. Top one of each league qualifies. Two home fixtures and two away fixtures, comprising playing each team in same league once and one team from the next league home or away (depending on draw). Then semis and final. Final is played as predecessor to the "League Cup"

This gives SL1 teams a minimum of 11 Home League games, 2 Cup League Games and any additional CC game revenue (same as now).

SL2 Top 3 - Ditto.

SL2 Bottom 9 - 11 Home League Games

SL3 - All 14 - 13 League Home Games, 7 winning teams 2 extra home league games plus Cup revenues from home ties.

Losing 7 get 13 league home games plus any additional cup revenue.

This system means that in general there's an equality across all leagues and there's an incentive in terms of extra game revenues in each division for the second cup.

If its not cas in 12-14 it's going to be someone else. That same club will struggle to get over 5k for half a season and season tickets for the club are worthless come may.

It's your fault fans of club x that your team is around the bottom so you suffer through 20 friendlys now.

That'll keep people swarming in to watch our game :0

How would this be funded ??? Would be a good system but nowhere near enough money in the sport to do that IMO

As I put near the top, they need to get sponsors and all TV companies in one room.

The two leagues can be funded by TV deals from Sky Sports, Premier Sports and BeIn Sports.

Challenge Cup BBC

League Cup - Sky/BBC

Would tv companies pay more than they do now ??? (Dont premier sports pay nothing for the NLs). what reason would they have to ??? The SC 300k in the championship so for a Sc of £1m to be brought in that would mean each club has to find £700k extra per season just on wages, I just can't see the sport finding that.

It's the only way the sport in this country is going to progress.

And Sky need to see that the more they invest in the sport the better it is going to become. They'll want to attract more viewers and the only way they'll do that is by getting the best players over here.

If clubs can all spend the salary cap it'll improve the quality of the game.

Agree with you but can't see them investing that much more any time soon.

well there's the chicken and egg situation for you.

If we don't get crowds we can't spend money. If we can't spend money we can't compete. If we can't compete we won't get crowds........