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| Quote ="Jimmythecuckoo"I am still amazed he was on £40k pa at Cas.'"
I wouldn't believe everything you read, he signed a new contract last year, my guess would be he will be on a fair bit more than that now.
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| Quote ="BD"Sale Sharks' head coach truly taking the mickey here:
[i"There are no governing body registrations between the sports," added Diamond.
"It is just like someone coming from another sport to rugby union, whether it be football or basketball and I don't understand what the furore is about."[/i
If this is the case, then what's to stop every rugby league player retiring and jumping ship? What a shambles - Sale should be ashamed of themselves. Cas are not a rich club - I hope this legal battle doesn't do us more harm than good.'"
Yep what a pillock.
It's not a registration issue, it's a contractual issue. Sale/Solomona have to buy him out of his contract with Cas. End of. There is no alternative to this and the fact Solomona, Sandow and Segeyaro are all trying it at the same time makes it a bigger issue than each individual case. The RFL needs to defend the sport.
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| Trying to avoid posting too much on this issue as I'm so biased. However, trying to take an objective view.
1. As long as Sale haven't slipped up, it will be difficult to prove they have induced him to breach his contract.
2. The player has breached his contract. This is dealt with at an Employment Tribunal. Castleford should make a claim against the player as an individual and seek to recover their financial loss. If an ET find the player to be in breach of contract, they should be able to make a judgement on the financial loss suffered by Castleford using information such as previous transfer fees paid, the value of the offers Castleford turned down for the player and the loss of direct player sponsorship. ETs make far more complicated financial decisions than is required in this case.
3. Taking joint action against the player and Sale Sharks may be counter-productive. In this case, the player and Sale would be joint respondents, allowing the full financial weight of Sale to be used to defend the case. If Castleford only name the player as the respondent, any financial assistance given by Sale to defend a personal claim against him should be counted in their salary cap. It also means Castleford are likely to come up against much stiffer opposition in the form of Sale's legal team. Making the claim against the player only encourages puts more pressure on Sale and the player to come to an agreement with Castleford.
4. No ET in the land will accept this 'retirement' response. Given his age, his earning potential and his his immediate re-employment he has not retired.
5. Regardless of the above, his retirement is still a breach of contract. To retire, notice period still has to be given (unless this is due to illness). He hasn't done this, so legally it's still a breach of contract.
In summary, I don't think there is anything Castleford can do to prevent the player from gaining new employment. All that can be done through ET is claiming back the financial loss Castleford have suffered due to the player's breach of contract.
There is the option of lodging a dispute with the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but I have no idea how that works and what their powers are.
I also wonder if the player is being used by his agent and Sale as a test-case, and the player isn't intelligent enough to realise it.
If they get away with it, it lines his agent's pockets and gets Sale a free player.
If they don't, it's the player who is likely to be sued for breach of contract.
It seems like a no-lose situation for his agent and Sale, but a very risky one for the player.
One thing is for sure: all RU clubs will be interested in the outcome. If this is allowed to happen, it's an open market on RL players.
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| Agree with all that. Though I think Sale have slipped up as wasn't he pictured in Sale gear at their ground?
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| Quote ="Him"Agree with all that. Though I think Sale have slipped up as wasn't he pictured in Sale gear at their ground?'"
Perhaps. And they parked one of their vehicles on his drive. However, we are inferring from that they they were inducing him to breach his existing contract. All they need to say is that they were holding discussions about him joining them at the end of his Castleford contract in 2018 and not inducing him to breach it before then. It's unlikely but possible, which is all the ET needs to hear to have doubts and side with the respondent.
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| Quote ="poppys mum"What about sale tapping Solomona up while under contract. Meaning sale are guilty. Both as bad as each other.'"
Guilty of what though? Sale are not bound by Denny's contract with Cas. That's between Denny and Cas alone.
What the pressure might do is make Denny renege on his Sale contract, because defending it could bankrupt him, come back to Cas, who'll then offer him for sale to Sale. Whether Sale will then pay for him when they thought they had him for nothing is for them to decide, but this could really bite Denny in the 'arris. He could end up out of favour of with both clubs.
What really sticks in the gut is that Denny's agent is so connected to the game but is quite willing to stiff it.
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"Guilty of what though? Sale are not bound by Denny's contract with Cas. That's between Denny and Cas alone.
What the pressure might do is make Denny renege on his Sale contract, because defending it could bankrupt him, come back to Cas, who'll then offer him for sale to Sale. Whether Sale will then pay for him when they thought they had him for nothing is for them to decide, but this could really bite Denny in the 'arris. He could end up out of favour of with both clubs.
What really sticks in the gut is that Denny's agent is so connected to the game but is quite willing to stiff it.'"
I said a few weeks ago - he should be very worried. He stands to lose a massive amount of money.
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| Quote ="Him"Yep what a pillock.
It's not a registration issue, it's a contractual issue. Sale/Solomona have to buy him out of his contract with Cas. End of. There is no alternative to this and the fact Solomona, Sandow and Segeyaro are all trying it at the same time makes it a bigger issue than each individual case. The RFL needs to defend the sport.'"
Absolutely right.
RL needs to throw everything it can at this one, although they may be wise to go after Solomona rather than Sale.
Everyone knows that Union have far deeper pockets and if it comes down to the two governing bodies wading in, I fear that there will only be one winner.
The RFL havent got the best record on legal action although, they did manage to come out on top with MarwanK.
It does make you wonder what is going on inside Solomona's head though.
Cas took a gamble on him when he signed from London and the guy was worshiped (rightly so) by the Cas fans and to put two fingers up to them and Castleford is grubby.
Of course, we dont know exactly what happened when Sale were trying to sign him legitimately but, walking away from his contract and/or Sale trying to get hold of a contracted player for nowt, just isn't right.
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"Guilty of what though? Sale are not bound by Denny's contract with Cas. That's between Denny and Cas alone.
.'" Inducing breach of contract.
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| Quote ="nottinghamtiger"Perhaps. And they parked one of their vehicles on his drive. However, we are inferring from that they they were inducing him to breach his existing contract. All they need to say is that they were holding discussions about him joining them at the end of his Castleford contract in 2018 and not inducing him to breach it before then. It's unlikely but possible, which is all the ET needs to hear to have doubts and side with the respondent.'"
I don't think Sale would get away with playing dumb and pretending they didn't know he was contracted to Cas.
The problem they have is that if Cas haven't accepted his retirement/resignation, he is still contracted to Cas right now,
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I don't think Sale would get away with playing dumb and pretending they didn't know he was contracted to Cas.
The problem they have is that if Cas haven't accepted his retirement/resignation, he is still contracted to Cas right now,'"
Officially, he might not be. A contract is between the employer and the employee. If he considers himself not to be employed by Castleford then he isn't.
All Castleford can do is make a claim against him for their financial loss and move on.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I don't think Sale would get away with playing dumb and pretending they didn't know he was contracted to Cas.
The problem they have is that if Cas haven't accepted his retirement/resignation, he is still contracted to Cas right now,'"
They're not going to pretend they didn't know he was contracted, they've reportedly made an offer to Cas for him. They will claim that when they were rejected by Cas they only spoke to Solomona to gauge his thoughts on signing for Sale when his contract ran out with Castleford, then anything he has done has been of his own decision. Added to that the fact they're claiming they haven't offered him a contract and that several RU clubs are looking to sign him and it's near impossible to lay any blame on Sale for this. As to Solomona, if Cas have rejected his retirement then they will need to continue paying him unless it explicitly states in his contract that they can stop his wage... If it doesn't and they have stopped it then Solomona could take Castleford to an ET for withholding his wage
It's probably going to end up as an out of court settlement, where Sale give Solomona a "signing fee" which he is instructed to give to Castleford as a means of buying himself out of his contract. The payment will be for an "undisclosed sum" with Castleford saying that they have mutually accepted Solomona's retirement from Rugby League and will be retaining his League Registration for the remained of his contract with them.
Other than this, it has implications far beyond our little sports, where if players are able to break contract then clubs will also be able to break contracts with players without financial implications who are injured/under performing. This won't just be for rugby but will stretch to all sports as the case will be cited when/if a player tries to take a club to court. It's a dangerous game which has the possibility to effectively make all sports contracts null and void
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| Quote ="nottinghamtiger"Officially, he might not be. A contract is between the employer and the employee. If he considers himself not to be employed by Castleford then he isn't.
All Castleford can do is make a claim against him for their financial loss and move on.'"
He can't just decide to end that contract.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"He can't just decide to end that contract.'"
Yes he can. It's a breach of contract, and he becomes liable for any financial loss to the employer, but the days of forced labour ended decades ago.
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| Quote ="bentleberry"They're not going to pretend they didn't know he was contracted, they've reportedly made an offer to Cas for him. They will claim that when they were rejected by Cas they only spoke to Solomona to gauge his thoughts on signing for Sale when his contract ran out with Castleford, then anything he has done has been of his own decision. Added to that the fact they're claiming they haven't offered him a contract and that several RU clubs are looking to sign him and it's near impossible to lay any blame on Sale for this. As to Solomona, if Cas have rejected his retirement then they will need to continue paying him unless it explicitly states in his contract that they can stop his wage... If it doesn't and they have stopped it then Solomona could take Castleford to an ET for withholding his wage
It's probably going to end up as an out of court settlement, where Sale give Solomona a "signing fee" which he is instructed to give to Castleford as a means of buying himself out of his contract. The payment will be for an "undisclosed sum" with Castleford saying that they have mutually accepted Solomona's retirement from Rugby League and will be retaining his League Registration for the remained of his contract with them.'" Except they know he is contracted to Castleford and are making him an offer.
If Sale know that Solomona has a contract with Cas. Then they know they cannot discuss one with him. If Solomona decides to retire, he still needs to be released from his contract with Cas. He doesn't get to say the word retirement and all his obligations disappear. He is still under contract.
Quote Other than this, it has implications far beyond our little sports, where if players are able to break contract then clubs will also be able to break contracts with players without financial implications who are injured/under performing. This won't just be for rugby but will stretch to all sports as the case will be cited when/if a player tries to take a club to court. It's a dangerous game which has the possibility to effectively make all sports contracts null and void'"
It wouldn't just be sports, it would be huge amounts of people in huge amounts of jobs.
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| Quote ="bentleberry"As to Solomona, if Cas have rejected his retirement then they will need to continue paying him unless it explicitly states in his contract that they can stop his wage... If it doesn't and they have stopped it then Solomona could take Castleford to an ET for withholding his wage. '"
Not so. If Solomona has committed the repudiatory (first fundamental) breach of contract, Castleford are entitled to dismiss him and pursue him for the financial loss caused by his repudiatiry breach.
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| Quote ="nottinghamtiger"Yes he can. It's a breach of contract, and he becomes liable for any financial loss to the employer, but the days of forced labour ended decades ago.'"
How can you breach a contract which has ended? You can't.
He must satisfy that contract in one way or another, which could be financial recompense.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"How can you breach a contract which has ended? You can't.
He must satisfy that contract in one way or another, which could be financial recompense.'"
Because in this case, the ending is the breach. The day he didn't report to work and informed Castleford he did not intend to do so, he breached his contract and it therefore ended.
He should know that Castleford may seek to gain financial recompense, which is what seems to be happening. Unfortunately, I suspect his agent failed to mention the fact Castleford may pursue him personally.
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| Quote ="nottinghamtiger"Because in this case, the ending is the breach. The day he didn't report to work and informed Castleford he did not intend to do so, he breached his contract and it therefore ended.
He should know that Castleford may seek to gain financial recompense, which is what seems to be happening. Unfortunately, I suspect his agent failed to mention the fact Castleford may pursue him personally.'"
The ending is not the breach, and nor is it reasonable to assume the breach is the ending.
The breach is not reporting to work. Not reporting to work whilst breaching the contract, does not end it. Solomona could turn up to work tomorrow and rightly assume that he could carry on with his contract (Cas could at anytime end that contract if they perceive his time spent AWOL to be gross misconduct, but would still need to follow the process for ending that contract as set down in it)
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The ending is not the breach, and nor is it reasonable to assume the breach is the ending.
The breach is not reporting to work. Not reporting to work whilst breaching the contract, does not end it. Solomona could turn up to work tomorrow and rightly assume that he could carry on with his contract (Cas could at anytime end that contract if they perceive his time spent AWOL to be gross misconduct, but would still need to follow the process for ending that contract as set down in it)'"
I was thinking more of this case in particular, assuming what is suspected is true.
Given what we 'know', Solomona's contract did end when he failed to report for work and told Castleford he didn't intend to do so. He didn't consider himself to be employed by Castleford (and therefore his contract has ended) so there is no requirement for Castleford as the (previous) employer to follow any procedures at all because he is no longer an employee.
Put simply though, the fact seems to be that he has committed the repuditory breach of contract at some point. Castleford are entitled to seek compensation for their financial loss.
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| Quote ="nottinghamtiger"I was thinking more of this case in particular, assuming what is suspected is true.
Given what we 'know', Solomona's contract did end when he failed to report for work and told Castleford he didn't intend to do so. He didn't consider himself to be employed by Castleford (and therefore his contract has ended) so there is no requirement for Castleford as the (previous) employer to follow any procedures at all because he is no longer an employee.
Put simply though, the fact seems to be that he has committed the repuditory breach of contract at some point. Castleford are entitled to seek compensation for their financial loss.'"
We don't know Solomona's contract has ended at all. In fact, Cas are quite clearly and explicitly saying that the contract is still in place.
It does not follow that because Solomona no longer considered himself employed by Castleford Tigers that his contract has ended.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"We don't know Solomona's contract has ended at all. In fact, Cas are quite clearly and explicitly saying that the contract is still in place.
It does not follow that because Solomona no longer considered himself employed by Castleford Tigers that his contract has ended.'"
I'm not sure Castleford have said this since Solomona didn't report for the beginning of pre-season.
As you say though, we don't actually "know" much.
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| How do you calculate the consequential loss suffered by Cas?
Hopefully its more than the 40k a year they were allegedly paying him - no wonder he wanted off if that is true
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"How do you calculate the consequential loss suffered by Cas?
Hopefully its more than the 40k a year they were allegedly paying him - no wonder he wanted off if that is true'"
I would imagine it will be guided by:
The value of the three offers Castleford received and rejected.
The value of the "extra" salary Solomona earned after signing a contract extension, which enhanced his salary on the basis he would remain an employee for longer (up to the end of the 2018 season).
Loss of direct player sponsorship. Castleford had an agreement with a company to be the matchday sponsor for Solomona which will now be lost.
Given these, I imagine it will be 150-200k (as a guess).
Castleford are also likely to claim legal costs if they win.
I hope Solomona has a lot of money saved up, or he may find any increase in his salary is being paid to Castleford for the next couple of years.
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| Solomona is suspended for not turning up to pre-season training and is still a Castleford player.
The argument that he can just retire and take up union will be contested in court, Rugby League is not just another sport a precendent has been set with many examples of transfer fees been payed between union and league clubs in the past and with a £300,000 offer rejected a judge will decide whether Sale and Solomona are being underhanded.
They don't have to have done anything illegal by current law ,this is a test case backed by the RFL and quite frankly I would expect SKY would take a keen interest in this case too considering the implications to the sport that they have spent billions on securing the exclusive rights to.
Maybe Sale still think they are taking on little old Cas.
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